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Why I2b1 is northern France?

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  • Why I2b1 is northern France?

    Hello FTDNA and fellow fora folk,

    I gratefully just received my 111-yDNA results that places me in the I-M223 (aka I2b1, aka I2a2a) haplogroup.

    One of the basic interpretations that FTDNA has provided for me is that my "I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France.”

    Now I have seen an I2b1 haplogroup map showing large European areas with the same 3-4% haplo degree as northern France.

    Additionally I learn via
    http://www.genealogy.com/forum/general/topics/dna/4364/
    that:

    The "i" group arose in Europe.
    i2b occurs in northwest continent of Europe
    i2b1 occurs in Britain and north west continent of Europe
    i2b1 is found in north and central Europe.
    i2b1 seems to occur where there has been invasions from what is now Germany, specifically the Hanovarian region.
    i2b1 is found in descendants of Vikings in Britain (Anglo-Saxons)
    12b1 came from the Norman invasion of Britain (Normans).
    4% of the population in Scotland is i2b and even fewer are i2b1.

    So how is it that FTDNA can specifically state that my "I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France”?

    Cheers,
    R
    (Genealogy is a hereditary disease.)

  • #2
    Originally posted by RabGib View Post
    Hello FTDNA and fellow fora folk,

    I gratefully just received my 111-yDNA results that places me in the I-M223 (aka I2b1, aka I2a2a) haplogroup.

    One of the basic interpretations that FTDNA has provided for me is that my "I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France.”

    Now I have seen an I2b1 haplogroup map showing large European areas with the same 3-4% haplo degree as northern France.

    Additionally I learn via
    http://www.genealogy.com/forum/general/topics/dna/4364/
    that:

    The "i" group arose in Europe.
    i2b occurs in northwest continent of Europe
    i2b1 occurs in Britain and north west continent of Europe
    i2b1 is found in north and central Europe.
    i2b1 seems to occur where there has been invasions from what is now Germany, specifically the Hanovarian region.
    i2b1 is found in descendants of Vikings in Britain (Anglo-Saxons)
    12b1 came from the Norman invasion of Britain (Normans).
    4% of the population in Scotland is i2b and even fewer are i2b1.

    So how is it that FTDNA can specifically state that my "I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France”?

    Cheers,
    R
    (Genealogy is a hereditary disease.)
    The reason is that FTDNA has a few scientists working for them. When they can extract so much info from a little bit of your spit ......

    Comment


    • #3
      Thus I present my FTDNA yDNA results interpretation:

      "Your Predicted Haplogroup is I-M223.
      The I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France. Today it is found most frequently within Viking / Scandinavian populations in Northwest Europe and extends at low frequencies into Central and Eastern Europe."

      One might be encouraged to choose further SNP testing based upon this.

      So my particular I-M223 haplogroup heads four or five further branches, which I suppose translates to 4 or 5 different migration possibilities, in this case resulting in concentration peaks in Germany, Sweden, and other European locations. And it apparently embraces the haplogroup subclade that, according to inscrutable FTDNA analysis, puts my ancestors in northern France via Vikings I would guess. ...And includes an M223 subclade specific to Scotland: M284.

      “Downstream" of the M284 branch, there are two further subdivisions. Branch I2a2a1a (L126/S165), I understand, is most commonly found in Scotland. (Don't have handy what the other one is, except it’s called L1193.)

      So the I2a2a1a branch (now known as the M284 after its SNP) is certainly representing the ancient “Scottish” Picts. As I see it, M223 haplogroup does not preclude me from having these people as direct male ancestors. So from my completely inexpert point of view, I would expect these Pictish ancestors to have been presented as an ancestral option. Additionally, this option is supported by the fact that my most distant known ancestor was from Scotland, and fairly close to the M284 peak.

      Of course the best way to provide certainty on all this will be more testing. And joining a few Projects for guidance.

      But when I, as genetic genealogy newbie, see such an omission and a lack of illumination, I have to wonder if y-DNA interpretation is more (black?) art than science.

      I really hope FTDNA will be able to set me straight on all this.

      Cheers,
      R

      Comment


      • #4
        @RabGib

        I would say that haplogroups and genetic genealogy very seldom overlap, as on average they describe time periods that are at least 500 years apart.

        W. (Mr.)

        Comment


        • #5
          Well thanks, Mr. (Mr.), I take your point which is, in 500 years, who knows where people may have moved to & from...

          Does that explain why Eurpedia 12a2 (12b) haplogroup maps show little of this haplogroup in northern France but with hotspots in Sweden, Germany and Scotland? That is, maybe this map actually represents the current situation and not some very different and unspecified ancient migration situation used by FTDNA in its "northern French roots" pronouncement?

          But all that said, I suppose it would be no surprise that my Scottish family might test positive (M233) for the real probability of a Pict haplotype. Though without source references, it still is difficult to reconcile Pict and northern France as root.

          Cheers, R


          http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...NA.shtml#I2a2a

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RabGib View Post
            Mr. (Mr.)

            Comment


            • #7
              Here's what jumps out at me with FTDNA's line “The I2b1 lineage likely has its roots in northern France."

              Since the next line references Vikings, it seems reasonable to assume that we are talking about the Viking incursion into northern France, and their "refinement" into Normans with the creation of Normandy, which I understand they began seriously settling somewhere around 920. Next you have Bill the Conq, 1066, and a subsequent huge influx of Normans into England, possibly including my ancestors as they later ended up in Scotland.

              Can those 140 or so years in the context of haplogroup migration and Mr. W's comments above be considered the European M223 hotspot such that this area can be viewed as my roots?

              Or does FTDNA single out Normandy because I stated my ancestors were from Scotland, and Normandy seemed a reasonable jumping off point given M233? I understand Vikings directly raided Scotland. Supposedly that would make my roots Scandinavian. So again, why northern France as roots? Did it once overshadow Scandinavia and other places M233? I'm sure not.

              Btw, I luv the idea of Norman roots...

              Comment


              • #8
                Just chipping in, I too received I-P37/M223 I2a2 haplogroup results on a family line of mine I had suspected to be of Swedish/Viking origin with known Latvian genealogy.
                I was a bit surprised reading about Carpathian origins for this haplogroup... there are not many close matches, our closest match is a Russian man born in Siberia, 2 step match at 37 markers...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by rachelleleclaire View Post
                  Just chipping in, I too received I-P37/M223 I2a2 haplogroup results on a family line of mine I had suspected to be of Swedish/Viking origin with known Latvian genealogy.
                  I was a bit surprised reading about Carpathian origins for this haplogroup... there are not many close matches, our closest match is a Russian man born in Siberia, 2 step match at 37 markers...
                  You are referring to M423--what is still often called the Dinaric clade, although Dinaric here refers to highest frequency (the Dinaric Alps of Croatia and Bosnia) rather than origin.

                  You are correct that I2a-Dinaric (now called I-CTS10228 or I-CTS5966 or I-Y3111) probably began to expand near the Carpathians around 2300 years ago.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oops, M223 was a typo
                    It seems like there's still lots of research to be done on this clade...
                    much more distant Y matches are from Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, etc but the closer ones are Russian, Austrian, German, Polish.
                    Does that just reflect the general trend of humanity migrating north at the end of the ice age, bringing this Dinaric haplotype with them or...
                    I suppose if there truly were Viking roots there would be Swedish Finnish or Danish surnames in the matches...

                    Comment

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