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P312 CONFUSION GENO 2.0 - Help !

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Armando View Post
    It also tests for CTS4466. See kit 234361 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp

    It was in implied in my response to her that the person should be DF27 that he is also L21-.
    I was responding to her post at that time, not yours. The list Alexandrina provided did not include a positive result for L21. That is sufficient to rule out CTS4466 as a likely possibility.

    When I checked my own Geno 2.0 raw file I missed the CTS4466 entry. Mea culpa.



    Originally posted by Armando View Post
    That is because P312 and DF27 are not tested by Geno 2.0
    Even if P312 and DF27 are not tested explicitly by the test, positive results on a downstream SNP from either one should be just as good an indicator of their presence as the negative result on an upstream SNP from CTS4466 should be a good indicator of its absence.



    Originally posted by Armando View Post
    The person is very likely to be terminal for DF27. That is not a Z### SNP.
    Alexandrina's list included no Z### SNPs. I was considering the possibility that a positive SNP in that group may have been missed in the pasted list of positives.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
      The member had 2 Tests. One for National Geographic Geno 2 and another YSTR y37 in the usual manner at FTDNA.
      Nat Geo predicted only to L-151 and the Y37 at FTDNA predicted P-312

      I believe he is CTS-4466 however as this sub clade is recently found via Big-Y testing or Advanced SNP stand alone tests it seems that the member was as baffled as many FTDNA members have been by Geno 2.0's non capacilty to find terminal P-312.

      So in this member's case the Geno 2.0 was a waste of money.
      Thank you for your advice though.
      Your member has two options. He can wait for a dys marker upgrade sale from FTDNA and upgrade to 67 or he can test for DF27. Df27 is downstream of P312 so why waste money on a P312 test? He would have been better of upgrading to 67 markers than a Geno2 test. Then he could search for matches at ysearch where a lot of testers are already SNP tested.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
        rbmirvin thank you for your reply however I am confused by this.

        Geno 2.0 does NOT test for P312 and L21 derives as a son? of P312 ; in this case how is it then that Nat Geo Geno 2.0 test can possibly find a sub group (L21) derived from P312 which it does not even test for?
        The test chip does not test for the groups. It tests for individual mutations from an "ancestral" sequence, each independently of the others. No matter what else is found, SNP L21 can be tested and verified. FTDNA has software that fits the results to groups, mostly, sort of?

        It just so happens that the way Y-DNA is copied and passed down, once a letter gets changed in the transcript it just keeps getting copied as if it were the original text. Thousands of years later, we have a pile of manuscripts that should be identical, but of course they aren't.

        So, we're at a point where the pile of manuscripts with the P312+ change have already been sorted into stacks, one of which is currently separated out and marked up with L21+ change. When a new set comes in, we know from all the previous sorting work that if we see L21+ it also has P312+ and everything upstream. Just in case there was a screwup in setting up the stacks, L151 gets checked ... because you cannot trust any of these guys to consistently get it right. Someone always has to throw a spanner in the works once a nice tidy Tree is all set up.


        Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
        The pathway for CTS4466 goes something like this>

        P312->-L21->-DF13 *(Z2542)->-FCG11134->-CTS4466

        Can you please let me know how you determined that L21 was negative in this members case?
        Thank you
        Alexandrina
        In case you haven't guessed from my comments, I'm L21+ from the Geno 2.0 test. So we know it was tested for and did not show up.

        And so far, CTS4466 has only come up positive in the group of men descended from Mr. L21+, so CTS4466- as well.

        The fact that so many subgroups that are checked for came up negative suggests that the person you are asking about might have a somewhat unique ancestry - out of thousands looked at, not a whole lot of lines checked have managed not to keep a perfectly straight transcript forward from the time L151+ first showed up. In that respect, more detailed testing of his DNA is more scientifically interesting than further testing of mine would likely be.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
          I was responding to her post at that time, not yours. The list Alexandrina provided did not include a positive result for L21. That is sufficient to rule out CTS4466 as a likely possibility.
          I understand that you weren't replying to my post. What I was saying is that my initial post should have been sufficient enough for it to be understood that the person is not L21+.

          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
          Even if P312 and DF27 are not tested explicitly by the test, positive results on a downstream SNP from either one should be just as good an indicator of their presence as the negative result on an upstream SNP from CTS4466 should be a good indicator of its absence.
          Yes, however not having P312+ and DF27+ in the list doesn't mean he isn't positive for those. That is what I was pointing out.


          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
          Alexandrina's list included no Z### SNPs. I was considering the possibility that a positive SNP in that group may have been missed in the pasted list of positives.
          There aren't any Z### SNPs upstream from DF27. The list you saw of SNPs is how the list of positive SNP markers show up for anyone that is terminal L151. This is a situation I have seen many times.

          Comment


          • #20
            P312* Terminal Confusion & Scottish Clan research

            Thank you again to everyone who replied to this post. The member concerned now has advanced SNP results.

            Another member who matched the original member has now upgraded to y111 and the terminal SNP is P312* nothing under this has been achieved by any test for any members that his Group matches; and these are considerable.

            Do you think that it might be possible that they are all in fact actually P312* terminal at this point and there have been no SNP mutations forward in time with this group of men? Perhaps they are members of a yet to be defined clade- Surely at least ONE of their many matches should have tested positive for DF27 by now with Big Y, and this is not yet the case. Plus we have a result of negative for CTS4466 as you expected however many of this particular member's matches are CTS4466+.

            I have asked on a number of occasions for this members Geno 2.0 results to be refreshed, however still unchanged.

            I am being pedantic here I know however, have very good reason as this particular cluster of men are very important in Scottish Clan history and hold 2 different surnames (or 3) which are historically linked as descended from the same progenitor in Scotland of Flemish cavaliers nearly 1,000 years ago. These men then went on to found 3 very important Scottish clans. Therefore the results regarding SNP designation for them is very important to us historically speaking.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
              Thank you again to everyone who replied to this post. The member concerned now has advanced SNP results.

              Another member who matched the original member has now upgraded to y111 and the terminal SNP is P312* nothing under this has been achieved by any test for any members that his Group matches; and these are considerable.

              Do you think that it might be possible that they are all in fact actually P312* terminal at this point and there have been no SNP mutations forward in time with this group of men? Perhaps they are members of a yet to be defined clade- Surely at least ONE of their many matches should have tested positive for DF27 by now with Big Y, and this is not yet the case. Plus we have a result of negative for CTS4466 as you expected however many of this particular member's matches are CTS4466+.

              I have asked on a number of occasions for this members Geno 2.0 results to be refreshed, however still unchanged.

              I am being pedantic here I know however, have very good reason as this particular cluster of men are very important in Scottish Clan history and hold 2 different surnames (or 3) which are historically linked as descended from the same progenitor in Scotland of Flemish cavaliers nearly 1,000 years ago. These men then went on to found 3 very important Scottish clans. Therefore the results regarding SNP designation for them is very important to us historically speaking.
              One of your clan will have to do the Big-Y test to resolve it.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                Thank you again to everyone who replied to this post. The member concerned now has advanced SNP results.
                Advanced SNP results from which test(s)?

                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                Another member who matched the original member has now upgraded to y111 and the terminal SNP is P312* nothing under this has been achieved by any test for any members that his Group matches; and these are considerable.
                Did the member you are concerned about ever get a Y111 test? What is the GD with other person with Y111 results? Did the other person or the original member ever order a standalone DF27 test? Was the P312 test ever ordered to verify the person really is P312?

                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                Do you think that it might be possible that they are all in fact actually P312* terminal at this point and there have been no SNP mutations forward in time with this group of men? Perhaps they are members of a yet to be defined clade-
                If they have ordered the individual SNP tests of P312 and all known subclades of P312, apart from the Geno 2.0 test, then yes they are in a yet to be defined subclade because every 3 generations, on average, there is a new SNP. There have to have been enough people tested with NGS (Next Generation Testing) for the the new SNP markers to be detected.

                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                Surely at least ONE of their many matches should have tested positive for DF27 by now with Big Y, and this is not yet the case. Plus we have a result of negative for CTS4466 as you expected however many of this particular member's matches are CTS4466+.
                DF27 isn't tested by BigY. See http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...ng-and-results post 65 through 70.

                Since the person in question is R-L151 in Geno 2.0 and the matches are CTS4466+ that means the matches are from a completely different paternal line. The person you are inquiring about is negative for L21 and CTS4466 since neither are showing positive in the Geno 2.0 results. It isn't unheard of for a person with a 67 marker test to have matches that belong to completely different subclades.

                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                I have asked on a number of occasions for this members Geno 2.0 results to be refreshed, however still unchanged.
                They really aren't needed since we already know what is and isn't tested by Geno 2.0 and you have his positive results.

                Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                I am being pedantic here I know however, have very good reason as this particular cluster of men are very important in Scottish Clan history and hold 2 different surnames (or 3) which are historically linked as descended from the same progenitor in Scotland of Flemish cavaliers nearly 1,000 years ago. These men then went on to found 3 very important Scottish clans. Therefore the results regarding SNP designation for them is very important to us historically speaking.
                You really should provide us kit numbers to be able to help you better.

                Comment

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