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P312 CONFUSION GENO 2.0 - Help !

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  • P312 CONFUSION GENO 2.0 - Help !

    Our member is predicted P312 and ordered Geno 2.0 in May, however it is my understanding that Geno 2.0 does not cover P312 nor DF27 even although P312 encompasses one of the largest groups of Western Europeans. Is this correct?

    The member received Geno 2.0 results which place him at L151 a position UPSTREAM of P312. What use is that & what was the point then of undertaking Geno 2.0 test at all? We already know that he is predicted to be within P312 even prior to the Geno 2.0 result. The member was not privy to the fact that Geno 2,0 did not encompass P312, nor DF27. There is a right for Nat Geo disclosure here surely. Why would any P312 male order Geno 2.0 then may I ask ?. The P312 Project advised in print and on their project pages for P312 members to undertake the National Geo Geno 2.0 test. This member needs to know if he is CTS4466+ and shouldn't have to pay yet again for an advanced SNP.

    What is going on here and am I missing something?
    Here are his results. NOTE NO NEGATIVE SNP's WHATEVER...wonder why not..

    Terminal SNP listed as R -L151. ?? way pstream of his already predicted P312.
    Can anyone explain why this would be?

    See his Geno 2.0 results below:
    R-L151

    CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

    Alexandrina

  • #2
    He should have tested the SNP P312 if he was predicted for it.How many markers is he tested for? If I had a look at them I may have been able to point him in the right direction.
    1798
    Registered User
    Last edited by 1798; 28 July 2014, 07:32 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
      Our member is predicted P312 and ordered Geno 2.0 in May, however it is my understanding that Geno 2.0 does not cover P312 nor DF27 even although P312 encompasses one of the largest groups of Western Europeans. Is this correct?

      The member received Geno 2.0 results which place him at L151 a position UPSTREAM of P312. What use is that & what was the point then of undertaking Geno 2.0 test at all? We already know that he is predicted to be within P312 even prior to the Geno 2.0 result. The member was not privy to the fact that Geno 2,0 did not encompass P312, nor DF27. There is a right for Nat Geo disclosure here surely. Why would any P312 male order Geno 2.0 then may I ask ?. The P312 Project advised in print and on their project pages for P312 members to undertake the National Geo Geno 2.0 test. This member needs to know if he is CTS4466+ and shouldn't have to pay yet again for an advanced SNP.

      What is going on here and am I missing something?
      Here are his results. NOTE NO NEGATIVE SNP's WHATEVER...wonder why not..

      Terminal SNP listed as R -L151. ?? way pstream of his already predicted P312.
      Can anyone explain why this would be?


      Alexandrina
      Most R1b people that test with Geno 2.0 get a terminal SNP at or below U106, L21, U152, or Z196. For them the Geno 2.0 test is well worth the money. 5% of all Geno 2.0 testers get the L151,P310 result. Most of those people would likely be terminal DF27 if they did further testing with FTDNA meaning they are negative for Z196 and all other SNP markers below DF27. If most of them would do further individual SNP testing they would end up in the Aaa. DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231- (R1b-DF27**) section of the DF27 project. See https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

      At one time FTDNA was reporting the negative results. You might have to contact FTDNA to have the account resynced. If you are a project admin you should have the contact email and phone number to have that done quickly.

      The following is what is and isn't tested by Geno 2.0

      P312 not tested
      DF27 not tested
      Z196 not tested
      Z195 is tested
      Z225 is tested
      DF81 not tested
      DF83 not tested
      L617 tested
      L86.2 tested (shows as L86 in Morley ytree)
      L881 not tested
      L1231 not tested
      L238 not tested
      DF99 not tested
      DF100 not tested
      CTS4528 not tested

      You can see what is negative for by downloading the person's raw Geno 2.0 file then going to the .ychromo.csv file and looking for the individual SNP markers and comparing them to the mutations listed at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

      You can see diagram of the DF27 tree made by one of the DF27 admins at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
        Our member is predicted P312 and ordered Geno 2.0 in May, however it is my understanding that Geno 2.0 does not cover P312 nor DF27 even although P312 encompasses one of the largest groups of Western Europeans. Is this correct?

        The member received Geno 2.0 results which place him at L151 a position UPSTREAM of P312. What use is that & what was the point then of undertaking Geno 2.0 test at all? We already know that he is predicted to be within P312 even prior to the Geno 2.0 result. The member was not privy to the fact that Geno 2,0 did not encompass P312, nor DF27. There is a right for Nat Geo disclosure here surely. Why would any P312 male order Geno 2.0 then may I ask ?. The P312 Project advised in print and on their project pages for P312 members to undertake the National Geo Geno 2.0 test. This member needs to know if he is CTS4466+ and shouldn't have to pay yet again for an advanced SNP.

        What is going on here and am I missing something?
        Here are his results. NOTE NO NEGATIVE SNP's WHATEVER...wonder why not..

        Terminal SNP listed as R -L151. ?? way pstream of his already predicted P312.
        Can anyone explain why this would be?

        See his Geno 2.0 results below:
        R-L151

        CTS10168+, CTS10362+, CTS10834+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11468+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11985+, CTS12478+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2134+, CTS2664+, CTS3063+, CTS3135+, CTS3331+, CTS3358+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3575+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3996+, CTS4244+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4437+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5577+, CTS5884+, CTS6135+, CTS623+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS7400+, CTS7659+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8591+, CTS8665+, CTS8728+, CTS8980+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F115+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1704+, F1714+, F1753+, F1767+, F1794+, F180+, F2048+, F2075+, F211+, F2142+, F2155+, F2302+, F2402+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2837+, F29+, F295+, F2985+, F2993+, F3111+, F313+, F3136+, F33+, F332+, F3335+, F344+, F3556+, F356+, F359+, F3692+, F378+, F4+, F47+, F506+, F556+, F63+, F640+, F652+, F671+, F719+, F82+, F83+, F93+, L11+, L132+, L15+, L150+, L151+, L16+, L23+, L265+, L278+, L350+, L388+, L389+, L407+, L468+, L470+, L471+, L478+, L482+, L483+, L498+, L500+, L502+, L506+, L51+, L52+, L585+, L721+, L747+, L752+, L754+, L761+, L768+, L773+, L774+, L779+, L82+, M139+, M168+, M207+, M235+, M294+, M343+, M415+, M42+, M45+, M526+, M89+, M94+, P128+, P131+, P132+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P207+, P225+, P226+, P228+, P229+, P230+, P232+, P233+, P235+, P236+, P237+, P238+, P240+, P242+, P243+, P244+, P245+, P280+, P281+, P282+, P283+, P284+, P285+, P286+, P295+, P297+, P310+, PAGES00083+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF500+, PF5465+, PF5466+, PF5468+, PF5471+, PF5851+, PF5853+, PF5854+, PF5865+, PF5869+, PF5871+, PF5882+, PF5886+, PF5887+, PF5888+, PF5953+, PF5956+, PF5957+, PF5964+, PF5965+, PF5982+, PF6063+, PF6091+, PF6145+, PF6246+, PF6249+, PF6250+, PF6263+, PF6265+, PF6270+, PF6271+, PF6272+, PF6404+, PF6409+, PF6411+, PF6424+, PF6425+, PF6430+, PF6432+, PF6434+, PF6438+, PF6443+, PF6463+, PF6494+, PF6495+, PF6498+, PF6500+, PF6506+, PF6507+, PF6509+, PF6524+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, s10+, s3+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000067+, YSC0000072+, YSC0000075+, YSC0000082+, YSC0000166+, YSC0000176+, YSC0000179+, YSC0000182+, YSC0000186+, YSC0000191+, YSC0000194+, YSC0000201+, YSC0000203+, YSC0000205+, YSC0000207+, YSC0000213+, YSC0000219+, YSC0000224+, YSC0000225+, YSC0000227+, YSC0000230+, YSC0000232+, YSC0000233+, YSC0000251+, YSC0000269+, YSC0000270+, YSC0000279+, YSC0000288+, YSC0000294+

        Alexandrina
        I wasted money on the Geno2 test and I was ill advised by some posters.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
          Our member is predicted P312 and ordered Geno 2.0 in May, however it is my understanding that Geno 2.0 does not cover P312 nor DF27 even although P312 encompasses one of the largest groups of Western Europeans. Is this correct?
          Bear in mind that Geno 2.0 was designed to survey the entire human population, using the haplotype information known at the time. It was not designed as a genealogical tool. So ... the chip does not test P312 or DF27, but it does appear to test one or two SNPs for just about each of the (R) subclades accepted by ISOGG as recently as a year or two ago.


          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
          The member received Geno 2.0 results which place him at L151 a position UPSTREAM of P312. What use is that & what was the point then of undertaking Geno 2.0 test at all?
          mtDNA and autosomal DNA SNPs are also checked - thousands of them, not just the 12k checked on the Y chromosome. That's kind of interesting, although I've no idea how useful it will turn out.

          So why spend 50% more to refine my 2008 results from paternal R1b/maternal K to R-L555/K1c1? Why not? I was looking forward to a higher Neanderthaler percentage than what was identified (only 2.1%), but that's life. I also wanted to see what wacky ethnicity projection they'd come up with for an 8th-generation American.


          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
          This member needs to know if he is CTS4466+ and shouldn't have to pay yet again for an advanced SNP.
          If I read the haplotree for R correctly, the answer is "no"

          Geno 2.0 does test explicitly for L21, upstream of CTS4466, and the listing you've provided is L21-



          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
          What is going on here and am I missing something?
          Here are his results. NOTE NO NEGATIVE SNP's WHATEVER...wonder why not..
          Because having hundreds of people scrolling through 12,000 records at a time is frustrating for the users and takes up a lot of bandwidth. If you need all the negative results as well, you're really better off downloading the raw files from National Geographic.


          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
          Terminal SNP listed as R -L151. ?? way pstream of his already predicted P312.
          Can anyone explain why this would be?
          If the list posted is complete, he isn't in any of the subclades identified downstream of R-L151.

          A lot of R-P312 appears to be identified by Z### SNPs, of which there are none listed ... was the data transfer to Family Tree a partial upload by some chance? That would be the easiest way to wreck the interpretation process.

          Comment


          • #6
            GENO-2 & NAT GEO CONFUSION

            Originally posted by 1798 View Post
            He should have tested the SNP P312 if he was predicted for it.How many markers is he tested for? If I had a look at them I may have been able to point him in the right direction.
            The member had 2 Tests. One for National Geographic Geno 2 and another YSTR y37 in the usual manner at FTDNA.
            Nat Geo predicted only to L-151 and the Y37 at FTDNA predicted P-312

            I believe he is CTS-4466 however as this sub clade is recently found via Big-Y testing or Advanced SNP stand alone tests it seems that the member was as baffled as many FTDNA members have been by Geno 2.0's non capacilty to find terminal P-312.

            So in this member's case the Geno 2.0 was a waste of money.
            Thank you for your advice though.

            Comment


            • #7
              [QUOTE=rbmirvin;388987]
              Quote:
              Originally Posted by Alexandrina View Post
              This member needs to know if he is CTS4466+ and shouldn't have to pay yet again for an advanced SNP.
              If I read the haplotree for R correctly, the answer is "no"

              Geno 2.0 does test explicitly for L21, upstream of CTS4466, and the listing you've provided is L21-

              rbmirvin thank you for your reply however I am confused by this.

              Geno 2.0 does NOT test for P312 and L21 derives as a son? of P312 ; in this case how is it then that Nat Geo Geno 2.0 test can possibly find a sub group (L21) derived from P312 which it does not even test for?

              The pathway for CTS4466 goes something like this>

              P312->-L21->-DF13 *(Z2542)->-FCG11134->-CTS4466

              Can you please let me know how you determined that L21 was negative in this members case?
              Thank you
              Alexandrina

              Comment


              • #8
                CONFUSING GENO-2 re P312

                Originally posted by Armando View Post
                Most R1b people that test with Geno 2.0 get a terminal SNP at or below U106, L21, U152, or Z196. For them the Geno 2.0 test is well worth the money. 5% of all Geno 2.0 testers get the L151,P310 result. Most of those people would likely be terminal DF27 if they did further testing with FTDNA meaning they are negative for Z196 and all other SNP markers below DF27. If most of them would do further individual SNP testing they would end up in the Aaa. DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231- (R1b-DF27**) section of the DF27 project. See https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

                At one time FTDNA was reporting the negative results. You might have to contact FTDNA to have the account resynced. If you are a project admin you should have the contact email and phone number to have that done quickly.

                The following is what is and isn't tested by Geno 2.0

                P312 not tested
                DF27 not tested
                Z196 not tested
                Z195 is tested
                Z225 is tested
                DF81 not tested
                DF83 not tested
                L617 tested
                L86.2 tested (shows as L86 in Morley ytree)
                L881 not tested
                L1231 not tested
                L238 not tested
                DF99 not tested
                DF100 not tested
                CTS4528 not tested

                You can see what is negative for by downloading the person's raw Geno 2.0 file then going to the .ychromo.csv file and looking for the individual SNP markers and comparing them to the mutations listed at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNA_SNP_Index.html

                You can see diagram of the DF27 tree made by one of the DF27 admins at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...dency_Tree.jpg
                Thank you Armando,
                However Admins do not have access to members Raw data files .
                I shall ask the member to give me access.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thank you for yr help.

                  Thank you everyone for your replies. Have been playing catch up after illness. Our member increasingly frustrated.

                  Forum still not notifying me when replies are received to my posts.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    He should have tested the SNP P312 if he was predicted for it.How many markers is he tested for? If I had a look at them I may have been able to point him in the right direction.
                    People should still be trying to determine their terminal SNP. There person in question has a 90% chance of being terminal for DF27. Group Aaa. DF27+ Z196- Z225- DF81- DF83- L617- L86.2- L881- L1231- (R1b-DF27**) at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                      The member had 2 Tests. One for National Geographic Geno 2 and another YSTR y37 in the usual manner at FTDNA.
                      Nat Geo predicted only to L-151 and the Y37 at FTDNA predicted P-312

                      I believe he is CTS-4466 however as this sub clade is recently found via Big-Y testing or Advanced SNP stand alone tests it seems that the member was as baffled as many FTDNA members have been by Geno 2.0's non capacilty to find terminal P-312.

                      So in this member's case the Geno 2.0 was a waste of money.
                      Thank you for your advice though.

                      He is not CTS4466
                      . He is negative for U106, L21, U152, CTS446 and many other SNP markers. Those markers are tested by Geno 2.0. He has a 90% chance of being terminal for DF27. Meaning that is the last known SNP he is positive for.

                      It was not a waste money. You now know he is negative for U106, l21, U152, CTS446 (I can assure you he was tested for that) Z195. All he needs to test for now is P312 and DF27 by logging in to his account then going to https://www.familytreedna.com/upgrad...V&category=SNP and ordering those two tests.

                      See kit 234361 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults and also search for his kit at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp and you will see CTS4466-

                      Have you called or contacted FTDNA to have the person's Geno 2.0 results resynced or refreshed to that they show on the SNP page?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                        Thank you Armando,
                        However Admins do not have access to members Raw data files .
                        I shall ask the member to give me access.
                        Yes, I was aware admins do not have access to Geno 2.0 files. It was inferred that you had to ask him to send it to you.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
                          If I read the haplotree for R correctly, the answer is "no" Geno 2.0 does test explicitly for L21, upstream of CTS4466, and the listing you've provided is L21-
                          It also tests for CTS4466. See kit 234361 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp

                          It was in implied in my response to her that the person should be DF27 that he is also L21-.


                          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
                          Because having hundreds of people scrolling through 12,000 records at a time is frustrating for the users and takes up a lot of bandwidth. If you need all the negative results as well, you're really better off downloading the raw files from National Geographic.
                          That is not the reason at all. There was a problem with the FTDNA site when some of the negative Geno 2.0 results disappeared and now all she has to do is ask for a refresh or resync of the Geno 2.0 data.

                          The negative results should show up in the FTDNA SNP page, such as in the case of kit 234361, and in the haplotree page https://my.familytreedna.com/y-dna-haplotree/

                          Again, see See kit 234361 at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp for an example how the negative results should show up for a person with L151 as a terminal SNP from Geno 2.0.

                          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
                          If the list posted is complete, he isn't in any of the subclades identified downstream of R-L151.
                          That is because P312 and DF27 are not tested by Geno 2.0

                          Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
                          A lot of R-P312 appears to be identified by Z### SNPs, of which there are none listed ... was the data transfer to Family Tree a partial upload by some chance? That would be the easiest way to wreck the interpretation process.
                          The person is very likely to be terminal for DF27. That is not a Z### SNP. The next one down that is most common is Z195 (equivalent to Z196) so that is a Z series SNP but since the person is negative for the marker it didn't show up in the list.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To see the Geno 2.0 results of a person that is CTS4466+ go to https://www.familytreedna.com/public...x?section=ysnp and search CTS4466+. You will see N59178 as the first person with the CTS4466+ result.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here is a list of the 12,052 SNP markers that are tested by Geno 2.0.

                              https://www.dropbox.com/s/a0zw9hcdzm...20markers.xlsx

                              If a person does not have those markers in their list of positive markers then they are negative for them.

                              If a person is positive for L151 but negative for all of the SNP markers below L151 that show up in the list then they need to test for P312 and DF27. If they are negative for DF27 then they need to test for DF100. If they are positive for DF27 then they need to join the DF27 project and discussion group and see which additional other markers can be tested. There are a few that weren't tested and they are included in my initial post.

                              Comment

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