Need Help (Is my understanding correct)

[ada43952]

Here's my situation, I purchased the Y-DNA12 test and I received two exact matches for Ancestral Origins; country of Origin for those two matches were Denmark and United Kingdom. Well, I'm bi-racial and my father is of African descent. I was expecting more African based locations. Even my matches of -1 yielded countries like Czech Republic, England, France, Germany and Ireland.
I also imported my results to ySearch and got more exact matches and none of those had African origins either.

My understanding of these results would lead me to believe that at some point in my paternal line that a slave owner had "relations" a slave (or non African had relations with someone of African. I guess I can't assume it was slave owner/ slave relationship).

Is there a flaw in my logic?

Thanks for any help.


Reference Data:
Population Finder results:

Finnish, Orcadian 39.86%
Adygei, Iranian, Jewish 15.96%
Mandenka 44.18%

Y - STR results:
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 12 24 13 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29

[J Honeychuck]

The exact and close matches must be of the same haplogroup to be of any interest to you.

[Jim Barrett]

To learn about your patriline you need more than 12 Y-DNA markers.

Since you mention "Population Finder" I assume you have also ordered the Family Finder test. Your population finder results are based on comparing atDNA for all of your lines, not just your patriline line.

[Zaru]

Projected Haplogroup???

If you have a projected Hg this will tell you about your patrilineal origins.

[ada43952]

The exact and close matches must be of the same haplogroup to be of any interest to you.

Thank you! Because of my matches FTDNA was not able to predict my Haplogroup with a 100% confidence so a "backbone SNP test" was ordered. Once that comes in I guess I'll know a lot more.

The odd things is, at Whit Athely's Haplogroup predictior, it predicted my Haplog group to be R1b with a 100% probablity.
The one match on FTDNA that acutally list his group is a "R1b1a2", I'm not sure if the "1a2" makes a difference or if that's just a sub group.

To learn about your patriline you need more than 12 Y-DNA markers.

Since you mention "Population Finder" I assume you have also ordered the Family Finder test. Your population finder results are based on comparing atDNA for all of your lines, not just your patriline line.

What would you suggest the minimum number of markers I should test? I started off with the 12 test to see what I could find out. I guess when get the SNP results back I'll know a little more.

I understand the "Population Finder" resuts are based on all of my lines. I just noticed in a lot of post people list thier results (now that I think about it, it's probably in their signature) and thought it might be of intererst for someone answering my question.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll probably be back when I recieve my SNP results!

[MMaddi]

Thank you! Because of my matches FTDNA was not able to predict my Haplogroup with a 100% confidence so a "backbone SNP test" was ordered. Once that comes in I guess I'll know a lot more.

The odd things is, at Whit Athely's Haplogroup predictior, it predicted my Haplog group to be R1b with a 100% probablity.
The one match on FTDNA that acutally list his group is a "R1b1a2", I'm not sure if the "1a2" makes a difference or if that's just a sub group.

The Athey predictor is probably correct that your haplogroup is R1b; it's probably some sort of R1b1a2, as the one match at FTDNA is listed. In your original post, the DYS392=13 is the main sign that you're R1b. That marker value is not found much in other haplogroups.

The reason that FTDNA is giving you the free backbone test is that there's only one match due to unusual marker values. Since that doesn't give them high confidence that they can predict correctly, they're resorting to the backbone test to establish the basic haplogroup with certainty. The one match probably also received the backbone test because of the same unusual marker values. The match's "Terminal SNP" is probably listed as M269, which is the SNP that defines R1b1a2.

What would you suggest the minimum number of markers I should test? I started off with the 12 test to see what I could find out. I guess when get the SNP results back I'll know a little more.

I understand the "Population Finder" resuts are based on all of my lines. I just noticed in a lot of post people list thier results (now that I think about it, it's probably in their signature) and thought it might be of intererst for someone answering my question.

Thanks everyone for your help. I'll probably be back when I recieve my SNP results!

To find someone with whom you share a common paternal line ancestor in the last few hundred years, the minimum markers tested to get good reliability is 37; 67 is better. Close matches you get at 12 or 25 markers may represent a common ancestor over 1,000 years ago. FTDNA's holiday sale is going on until Dec. 31, so now's the time to upgrade. You can upgrade from 12 to 37 for $69 or from 12 to 67 for $148 during the sale.

As far as knowing more when you get back the SNP result, the information you'll get from the backbone test is limited. It will establish your basic haplogroup, probably R1b1a2, but will not delve further downstream to test SNPs that define subclades (subgroups) below R1b1a2.

R1b1a2 and its subclades is the most common haplogroup among men with European ancestry, especially from the Atlantic coast to Germany. It's less dominant in southern Europe (Italy and the Balkans), although it does occur there. Knowing your subclade may tell you something about where in Europe it's most common, if that interests you.

However, to know your subclade you'd have to do more SNP testing, which is not free. There are three main ways to do SNP testing:

1. Individual SNP testing at FTDNA, at $39/SNP

2. Geno 2.0, on sale now for $159.95. This is from the Genographic Project, which would require a new DNA sample sent to them. It tests for 12,000 SNPs and you can upload your results for free into your FTDNA account.

3. Big Y for $695. This is an FTDNA test, so it doesn't require a new sample. It tests 25,000 known SNPs and also sequences 10 million y chromosome locations, looking for new SNPs. Some of these may be specific to your paternal line in the last few hundred years.

My advice is to upgrade to 37 or 67 markers and join the R1b Gateway Project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b2/. The administrators of the project set it up to help members with deciding what SNPs to test. They're very helpful in that regard.

[ada43952]

The Athey predictor is probably correct that your haplogroup is R1b; it's probably some sort of R1b1a2, as the one match at FTDNA is listed. In your original post, the DYS392=13 is the main sign that you're R1b. That marker value is not found much in other haplogroups.
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R1b1a2 and its subclades is the most common haplogroup among men with European ancestry, especially from the Atlantic coast to Germany. It's less dominant in southern Europe (Italy and the Balkans), although it does occur there. Knowing your subclade may tell you something about where in Europe it's most common, if that interests you.

Thank you so much! This has been extreamly helpful! I do have one other question, and it's one that pretty much led me to the fourm. Am I missing something or not quite grasping something when I assume that my haplogroup should be more African located rather than European?
I've been doing the traditional Geneology and the furthest back on my paternal side is my Great Grand father (my father's father's Father). Now granted, since he was born in 1882 in Virginia, I can't (probably shouldn't) presume his father (my Great Great grandfather) was a slave, but probablity tells me that he was. My logic told me that since slavery was within the last 200 years that the haplogroup I'd belong to would be more closer to one out of Africa, unless of course a slave owner (or a European decendent) "stepped in".
So if it turns out that my haplogroup is R1b1a2, "...the most common haplogroup among men with European ancestry"; is it safe to say that my paternal line does not extend (in the traditional fashion) back to Africa?
Thanks again for all of your help and information! While the sale is going on, I am going to upgrade to the 37!

Thanks,

[MMaddi]

Thank you so much! This has been extreamly helpful! I do have one other question, and it's one that pretty much led me to the fourm. Am I missing something or not quite grasping something when I assume that my haplogroup should be more African located rather than European?
I've been doing the traditional Geneology and the furthest back on my paternal side is my Great Grand father (my father's father's Father). Now granted, since he was born in 1882 in Virginia, I can't (probably shouldn't) presume his father (my Great Great grandfather) was a slave, but probablity tells me that he was. My logic told me that since slavery was within the last 200 years that the haplogroup I'd belong to would be more closer to one out of Africa, unless of course a slave owner (or a European decendent) "stepped in".
So if it turns out that my haplogroup is R1b1a2, "...the most common haplogroup among men with European ancestry"; is it safe to say that my paternal line does not extend (in the traditional fashion) back to Africa?
Thanks again for all of your help and information! While the sale is going on, I am going to upgrade to the 37!

Thanks,

Assuming that your haplogroup is R1b1a2, it's most likely that your paternal line is European, not African. It is the case that something like 25% of African-American men have a European paternal line haplogroup. So, you wouldn't be alone in that if you are R1b1a2. The reasons for that are what you've thought about - relations between a white man and a black woman, whether there was a master/slave relationship or not.

There is another R1b subclade, R1b1c (defined by the V88 SNP) which is mainly found in Africa. So, it's possible that your haplogroup is R1b1c, not R1b1a2. In that case, your paternal line would probably be African, not European. The result from your backbone test should make it clear whether you're R1b1a2 (most likely) or not. If you're not, then the next possibility is R1b1c.

Besides upgrading to 37 markers, also join the R1b Gateway Project I mentioned at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/. That's a different url than I gave you in my previous post. It includes R1b1c (V88+), so you'd still be in the right project if you're V88+ and M269-.

[D.Clade]

Here's my situation, I purchased the Y-DNA12 test and I received two exact matches for Ancestral Origins; country of Origin for those two matches were Denmark and United Kingdom. Well, I'm bi-racial and my father is of African descent. I was expecting more African based locations. Even my matches of -1 yielded countries like Czech Republic, England, France, Germany and Ireland.
I also imported my results to ySearch and got more exact matches and none of those had African origins either.

My understanding of these results would lead me to believe that at some point in my paternal line that a slave owner had "relations" a slave (or non African had relations with someone of African. I guess I can't assume it was slave owner/ slave relationship).

Is there a flaw in my logic?

Thanks for any help.


Reference Data:
Population Finder results:

Finnish, Orcadian 39.86%
Adygei, Iranian, Jewish 15.96%
Mandenka 44.18%

Y - STR results:
Marker DYS393 DYS390 DYS19** DYS391 DYS385 DYS426 DYS388 DYS439 DYS389I DYS392 DYS389II***
Value 12 24 13 11 11-15 12 12 12 13 13 29

You have gotten some great advise.

If you are R1b-V88 be aware that the backbone test will show M343+, M269-. This just happened to somebody recently. See Backbone results thread.
Looking at the 12 STRs and 16% Adygei, Iranian, Jewish in your admixture, R1b-Z2103 or R1b1a2a1 is a very strong possibility. Backbone will show you as R-M269 if that's the case and that won't tell you much.

Bottom line is more SNP testing and STR testing are needed for both you and for the science. IMO, finding your subclade with SNP testing is the priority.
Thanks for bringing your interesting Y-STR haplotype to our attention and please let us know what the backbone results are.
Good Luck!

[ada43952]

The results of my backbone test are in and they list my Y-DNA Haplogroup as R-M269. When I look at the SNP map, they have the group listed as R1b1a2 - M269, so is R1b1a2 the base group and I need to take additional SNP testing to get a more refined group?

So...I have so many thoughts and questions going through my head I'm not sure what to ask first! I'm sure my limited understanding of the subject matter doesn't help.

So, with respect to my origianl reason for starting any of this, does this result pretty much concrete the fact that my paternal line does not (in recent time, lets say last 300 yrs) extend back to Africa?

The main reason I ask and need to know is when researching my family tree, the furthest back on my father's side is my great grandfather, he was born in 1882 (after civil war) in Virginia, but I can't find anything about him before the age of about 20 years of age, and I can't even find any record of his death. So if what I suspect is true then maybe I'll need to start investigating name changes and the such. I already know I'm going to have to upgrade my testing yet again. I'm currently waiting on the results of the 37 marker test.

Thanks!

You have gotten some great advise.

If you are R1b-V88 be aware that the backbone test will show M343+, M269-. This just happened to somebody recently. See Backbone results thread.
Looking at the 12 STRs and 16% Adygei, Iranian, Jewish in your admixture, R1b-Z2103 or R1b1a2a1 is a very strong possibility. Backbone will show you as R-M269 if that's the case and that won't tell you much.

Bottom line is more SNP testing and STR testing are needed for both you and for the science. IMO, finding your subclade with SNP testing is the priority.
Thanks for bringing your interesting Y-STR haplotype to our attention and please let us know what the backbone results are.
Good Luck!

[aketilander]

country of Origin for those two matches were Denmark and United Kingdom.

The Danish were famous slave traders and had many salve fortresses on the cost of Africa. I had the opportunity to visit one of them in Ghana, The Cape Coast Castle. You can read more about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Coast_Castle

Many of the slaves were transported on ships to America, maybe one of the women on one of these ships were GGGGGrandmother.

The stories told at this place were of course that the women were raped by the white men, but there were also good stories about inter-racial families i Ghana. Many in Ghana were proud to know that they had an ancestor which was white european.

So I think maybe you will find the answers to your questions not so much in the DNA as in the litterature on slave trade.

[D.Clade]

The results of my backbone test are in and they list my Y-DNA Haplogroup as R1b-M269. When I look at the SNP map, they have the group listed as R1b1a2 - M269, so is R1b1a2 the base group and I need to take additional SNP testing to get a more refined group?

So...I have so many thoughts and questions going through my head I'm not sure what to ask first! I'm sure my limited understanding of the subject matter doesn't help.

So, with respect to my origianl reason for starting any of this, does this result pretty much concrete the fact that my paternal line does not (in recent time, lets say last 300 yrs) extend back to Africa?

The main reason I ask and need to know is when researching my family tree, the furthest back on my father's side is my great grandfather, he was born in 1882 (after civil war) in Virginia, but I can't find anything about him before the age of about 20 years of age, and I can't even find any record of his death. So if what I suspect is true then maybe I'll need to start investigating name changes and the such. I already know I'm going to have to upgrade my testing yet again. I'm currently waiting on the results of the 37 marker test.

Thanks!

ada43952,
So it's R-M269 which is not going to help very much. Thanks for testing to the 37 STR marker level. DYS393=12 plus DYS19=13 really limits your matches. Add the DYS385=11-15 and it's surprising you matched anybody. Just no way to predict your clade with STR markers.
More SNP testing is needed just to sort things out. The quick and easy way to do that would be with the Geno 2.0 test so you know what branch of the R1b-M269 branch you belong too. Please check out the ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2013 tree and you will see why you need to SNP test.
MMaddi spelled out your options best. http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...03&postcount=6 Happy testing.
Now in regards to your ancestry. What we know right now is that it is highly unlikely that your Y R1b-M269 came from Africa. R1b-M269 is the haplogroup of Professor Henry Louis Gates and he has great perspective on the subject. CeCe Moore has a write-up. http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.co...nry-louis.html
Good luck with your research!

[ada43952]

ada43952,
So it's R-M269 which is not going to help very much. Thanks for testing to the 37 STR marker level. DYS393=12 plus DYS19=13 really limits your matches. Add the DYS385=11-15 and it's surprising you matched anybody. Just no way to predict your clade with STR markers.
More SNP testing is needed just to sort things out. The quick and easy way to do that would be with the Geno 2.0 test so you know what branch of the R1b-M269 branch you belong too. Please check out the ISOGG Y-DNA Haplogroup R and its Subclades - 2013 tree and you will see why you need to SNP test.
MMaddi spelled out your options best. http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...03&postcount=6 Happy testing.
Now in regards to your ancestry. What we know right now is that it is highly unlikely that your Y R1b-M269 came from Africa. R1b-M269 is the haplogroup of Professor Henry Louis Gates and he has great perspective on the subject. CeCe Moore has a write-up. http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.co...nry-louis.html
Good luck with your research!

Thank you for your help. As I wait for the results of the 37 marker test to come back I'm debating on upgrading to the 111 marker test, but you mentioned the Geno 2.0 test. Does the Geno 2.0 test everything the 111 marker tests. I guess my question is, is it best to take just one over the other or take both?

[Jim Barrett]

Does the Geno 2.0 test everything the 111 marker tests. I guess my question is, is it best to take just one over the other or take both?

No! Geno 2.0 tests SNPs on Chromosomes. All of the Y-DNA tests STRs on the Y Chromosome only. Geno 2.0 can help define your Haplogroup. Many new SNPs have been found that are not included on the Geno 2.0 chip.

[D.Clade]

Thank you for your help. As I wait for the results of the 37 marker test to come back I'm debating on upgrading to the 111 marker test, but you mentioned the Geno 2.0 test. Does the Geno 2.0 test everything the 111 marker tests. I guess my question is, is it best to take just one over the other or take both?

Hello ada43952,
You should find out what subclade of the R-M269 haplogroup you belong to first. That can only be done with SNP testing. In your case, Geno 2.0 should give you a confirmed haplogroup at the best price. You will then have the option of testing for new SNPs that are discovered for your haplogroup in the future. The 111 STR test will be great to have for matching and STR signatures. STRs, no matter how many, still leave you with just a haplogroup prediction.
Short Tandem Repeat (STR) = Prediction
Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP) = Confirmation
Of course this is just my opinion. Whatever test path you choose will be helpful to your research.
Good luck!