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Does a SNP ever disappear when mutating

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  • Bartot
    replied
    with the same topic, i was told that in 2008 when L and T where announced as new HG's, some G people where reassigned as L and some Q people reassign as T.
    Is this due to mutation of STR/SNP ?

    I was told G is especially prone to mutation changes

    I was wondering because all my close matching people are in either britain or norway, even though I am T1b

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
    If all turn out to be negative and I end up with just DF13+ I may consider a walk through. My L21 is from northern France and thought it may contribute something.
    I was considering the same, but then I struck gold with DF13- and DF63+. There has to be more SNPs below DF13 waiting to be discovered.

    Leave a comment:


  • Brunetmj
    replied
    I assume you mean L371 and not L37?
    Yes L371- why do all of these charts have to written in such small fonts!
    If all turn out to be negative and I end up with just DF13+ I may consider a walk through. My L21 is from northern France and thought it may contribute something.

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
    I have tested negative for most of the big ones.
    DF49,L96,Z255,Z253,DF21,DF41 were all negative

    I recently ordered L513 , L37 and L555 as they are the only top tier SNP's left for me. Thats why I asked about DF 63 to make sure I am not missing one and thanks for putting that to rest. I am glad that SNP testing is so much faster than the rest of the various tests here!
    I assume you mean L371 and not L37? Good luck with your testing!

    -Kai

    Leave a comment:


  • Brunetmj
    replied
    Have you tried DF49? It is directly below DF13 and should be fairly big.
    I have tested negative for most of the big ones.
    DF49,L96,Z255,Z253,DF21,DF41 were all negative

    I recently ordered L513 , L37 and L555 as they are the only top tier SNP's left for me. Thats why I asked about DF 63 to make sure I am not missing one and thanks for putting that to rest. I am glad that SNP testing is so much faster than the rest of the various tests here!

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    Originally posted by Brunetmj View Post
    Does having DF13+ exclude DF63 ?
    I am shaping up to be DF13+ with no subclades.
    Yes, you are either DF13+ or DF63+. You can't be both. I happen to be DF63+, so hello there very, very, very distant cousin!

    You are not alone looking for an SNP below DF13, we seem to have a lot of DF13* kits. Have you tried DF49? It is directly below DF13 and should be fairly big.

    -Kai

    Leave a comment:


  • Brunetmj
    replied
    so far most of the DF13- guys have been found to be positive for DF63, which is parallel to DF13.
    Does having DF13+ exclude DF63 ?
    I am shaping up to be DF13+ with no subclades.

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    First, I do not know the J clade nor the admins in that project at all, so this is to be regarded as my theories. And keep in mind that I am not an expert in this field.

    But if I were to comment, I would suspect the new L147 results are actually L147.5 and L147.6 (1 through 4 already exists). In other words, it seems this SNP is way too unstable to be of any use in deep ancestry research. If I was the admin of that project, I would present Thomas Krahn with the kit numbers of the tests you mentioned and ask his opinion.

    -Kai

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Originally posted by k.o.gran View Post
    If they are "parallel mutations", then one should be called .1 and the other .2. If I were you, I would look up the SNP on the J draft tree and see what they're called there:
    http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?nam...arent=11024115

    -Kai
    I don't know if "parallel mutation" is the best description, but I'm not one of the project's admins. One person is tested L136-, and the other is tested P58-; both of those are well-established SNPs downstream of M267 and upstream of the well-established L147.1, for which they've both tested positive. Very strange..

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie View Post
    The J1 SNPs involved are stable and subclade-defining; the PAs have the two members subgrouped as "parallel mutations!?".
    If they are "parallel mutations", then one should be called .1 and the other .2. If I were you, I would look up the SNP on the J draft tree and see what they're called there:
    http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?nam...arent=11024115

    -Kai

    Leave a comment:


  • vinnie
    replied
    Originally posted by k.o.gran View Post
    That would be similar to the example I gave with L69. So let's say the SNP you're describing is called X123, the new occurance would be called X123.2. If it is found in many other places as well, it will eventually be useless for deep ancestry.

    -Kai
    The J1 SNPs involved are stable and subclade-defining; the PAs have the two members subgrouped as "parallel mutations!?".

    Leave a comment:


  • Stevo
    replied
    It does happen, although very rarely. P25, for example, has been known to be somewhat unstable and to back mutate. Even in that case, though, it has happened only rarely.

    But there is no evidence for that in DF13. In fact, so far most of the DF13- guys have been found to be positive for DF63, which is parallel to DF13 and not downstream of it. If they had "back mutated" at DF13, they would be DF63-.

    Besides, among them, the DF13- guys have tested for all of the DF13+ subclades and are negative for all of them. That is true of the DF13- DF63- guys, as well. Among them, pretty much all of the DF13+ subclades are accounted for.

    If DF13 were unstable and subject to back mutations, I think we would have seen some indication by now.

    Leave a comment:


  • k.o.gran
    replied
    Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
    The odds of a SNP reversing itself in future generations is probably about like the odds of winning the lottery, but... lotteries do have winners & I'm sure that SNPs do occasionally reverse.

    Timothy Peterman
    Not that I have the exact numbers, but for SNPs that are considered stable today, I believe it's more like winning the lottery every week for an entire year.

    -Kai

    Leave a comment:


  • T E Peterman
    replied
    The odds of a SNP reversing itself in future generations is probably about like the odds of winning the lottery, but... lotteries do have winners & I'm sure that SNPs do occasionally reverse.

    Timothy Peterman

    Leave a comment:


  • Brunetmj
    replied
    Thanks everyone. I suspected as much but wanted to be sure.

    Leave a comment:

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