YDNA Differences and Family Branches

[jbarry6899]

I am new to Genetic Genealogy although I've done a lot of traditional research. I recently received my 37-marker results and have a couple of questions that I home can be answered by some of you who are more experienced.

My family (Barry) came to Ireland in the 12th century with the Norman-Welsh invasion. Over the next two centuries it evolved into 3 branches. The branch from which I believe I am descended was the one that had the smallest amount of land (in West Cork) and was possibly the smallest in numbers.

In my YDNA matches there are no results that confirm my family's exact place of origin, but there is an interesting patters. On marker DYS388 my value is 11, whereas the great majority of those in the Berry/Barry surname study, and in the Ireland YDNA study have a value of 12 on that marker. For most of my 1-step matches with others sharing my surname that marker is the only difference. I share the 11 repeat value with about 10% of the others in those studies.

What I am wondering is whether it is plausible that the DYS388 value and the branching of the family are related. It is my understanding that DYS388 has a fairly slow mutation rate, so the difference is generally consistent with mutations in the other branches 6 or 7 centuries ago, which is what the family histories suggest.

So my first question is: Does this make any sense at all or am I reading too much into the results?

My second question: I am aware of only one possible male relative in Ireland--a potential fifth cousin. Given the unusual value for the DYS388 marker, do you think that trying to get him to do a 37-marker test would be sufficient to confirm a possible relationship, or should I still opt for a larger number?

Thanks for any thoughts you might have.

Jim Barry

[Brunetmj]

Do you have a subclade? Are you L21? What specifically is your goal in DNA testing? I ask this because you already seem to know a lot about your family history dating back to the 12th century.
In projects like the L21plus group and associated yahoo projects L21's are grouped into "types" based on marker values.
Anyway I would suggest having a deep clade if you have not yet done so. Then joining a project. They are very knowledgeable about these marker values

[Donald Locke]

Hi Jim

I always tell this to all the participants of my projects. If your ultimate goal is to help prove a kinship, to go all the way with 67 markers and include the Deep Clade SNP add on. Obviously it is a lot more money, but the end result can have some darn interesting results.

A lot can change between the 38th and 67th marker! I have seen good 37 marker matches turn in to poor 67 marker matches. 37 markers is good but 67 markers is superior. The intent is to prove to yourself of a good kinship to the person you are trying to prove kinship to.

I see the confidence levels go way up once participants have gone the extra mile to the 67 marker level and included the Deep Clade SNP add on, and really that is the point, to give the participants in question the confidence of a true match. When participants are able to prove a good 67 match and SNP match, will give most participants great confidence of a true kinship to another participant.

[k.o.gran]

Hi Jim,

I agree with Brunetmj, the first you need to decide is what you want to achieve with DNA testing. As to your first question, yes it all makes sense. It is common to use slow mutating markers to cluster older family groups. But the issue here is that this is all based on statistics. Is it possible that the roulette wheel stops on 0 three times in a row? Yes. Is it possible that your father had a different value on DYS388 than you? Yes. But it is unlikely. Still, it has to have happened at least once that a son had a different value on that marker than his father had, because if not, we'd all have the same value.

I would say that you now have a theory, and it seems you also have a plan on how to test it. If I were you, I would absolutely test a potential 5th cousin if money permits. 37 markers should be enough to let you know if he is your 5th cousin or not, but as Donald points out, you will know more from 67 markers.

Also, as I understand you have many close matches, I would not suggest you take the deep clade test, but first see if any of your closest matches have done so. If they are all R-L21+, then test L21. I can't remember what the deep clade test costs, but a single SNP is $29 only.

Good luck!
-Kai

[jbarry6899]

YDNA Differences and Family Branches

Thanks to all of you for your very helpful replies.

I have two goals. The first is to determine whether the DNA results support my paper research. I have done extensive work on my family, and believe that I have correctly identified their place of origin. My work has been reviewed and supported by several professional genealogists who specialize in Irish families; however, there is no direct documentation that links my family to the specific location that I have found. It is my hope that, by testing a possible family member whose connection to the townland is confirmed, I will find additional information to confirm or correct my conclusion. From your responses, I will begin by asking him to take a 37-marker test and then see if an upgrade will be useful.

My second goal is to explore my family's connection to the Barrys who came to Ireland with the Norman-Welsh invasion. I do not expect to find any firm evidence, since my family records prior to the late 18th century are non-existent, but hope to find out more about the Barry family, its branches, and its evolution over time. There is an extensive family history book that details the intrigue, conflict and murder that characterized the family up until the early 18th century, but it focuses naturally on the titled members of the clan. My family were poor tenant farmers. My hypothesis, however, is that they were ultimately descended from a West Cork branch of the family that was outlawed for its part in the rebellions of the 17th century and had its lands forfeited. I've done extensive research in the land records and know how the property ownership evolved. I'm seeking to determine whether it is probable that descendants of the outlawed families returned as tenants on their former lands. While I will never know for certain, it's an interesting story to research.

With respect to the second goal, I find it provocative that the only individuals whom I can find in several large projects who have the DYS-11 value are members of the Barry/Berry families with roots in Cork. I initiated the deep clade test because none of these individuals have done subclade testing, so perhaps I can narrow the window a bit and invite them to do so.

It's good to know that my plan seems plausible to those of you with more experience and I look forward to the next steps.

Jim

[k.o.gran]

With respect to the second goal, I find it provocative that the only individuals whom I can find in several large projects who have the DYS-11 value are members of the Barry/Berry families with roots in Cork. I initiated the deep clade test because none of these individuals have done subclade testing, so perhaps I can narrow the window a bit and invite them to do so.

There are actually twenty or so that are R-L21 with DYS388=11. Most of them Eastern European and a couple of them Irish. It'll be interesting to see what your deep clade test shows. The reason I keep mentioning R-L21 is that it's very common in Ireland. I've read somewhere that it's estimated that 50% of all Irish men are R-L21.

-Kai

[jbarry6899]

YDNA Differences and Family Branches

Thanks, Kai--I looked at the individuals who were R L-21 and DYS388=11. None are close matches. I am eagerly awaiting my Deep Clade results and trying to contact my putative 5th cousin.

More later,

Jim

[jbarry6899]

YDNA Differences and Family Branches

Just got partial results from my deep clade test. I am negative for L21; positive for R-P312. Interesting. Waiting for downstream results.

Jim

[jbarry6899]

YDNA Differences and Family Branches

I now have the final deep clade results:

Your Haplogroup Tests Taken
R1b1a2a1a1b3c U152+ P312+ L2+ U106- M228.2- L21- L20- L196- L159.2-

I also received the following message:

Your test results show that your haplogroup is R1b1a2a1a1b3c. A Y-DNA SNP extension test is not available.

I'm not unhappy with the result, since it is consistent with what is known about my family origins, but I had understood that there were tests available for more downstream SNPs. I'm inclined to wait until the new Gen 2.0 test is available through FTDNA but would welcome other suggestions.

Thoughts?

Jim

[k.o.gran]

Jim,

I suggest you join the R-P312 yahoo group and ask for suggestions there. You are more likely to get good advice through that mailing list.

Also, I suggest you join the R-P312 project.

-Kai

[jbarry6899]

YDNA Differences and Family Branches

Thanks, Kai--I am a member of both R-312 and U-152, as well as Ireland YDNA. The FTDNA site seems to be down right now, but I will email the administrators of those projects when it returns.

Jim