Deep Clade or SNP

[Mike_]

FTDNA have given me a predicted Haplogroup of R1b1a2.

Should I get a Deep Clade test to confirm this and get a more detailed answer or order some specific SNP tests instead.

When I look at my Haplogroup Origins page it shows R1b1a2a1a1b4 for 12, 25 and 67 markers exact match. So does that suggest I am R1b1a2a1a1b4?

I tested on YSearch and found a genetic distance of 4 to a few people who said they are R1b1a2a1a1b4.

My YSearch id is BERJU

I am asuming the answer will be to do the Deep Clade and then look at invididual SNPs. I just don't want to miss out on a short cut in terms of time and cost if it is a possibility.

My motivation is to find out more about the origins of my surname which from my paper trail is Scots/Irish.

I know there are a lot of similar posts asking about Deep Clade but as I am a complete novice at this I can't work out what to do in my situation. Any advice including the most basic would be great.


Thanks

[prairielad]

Doing a Deep Clade test will, in my understanding, give your final up to date Haplogroup. No need to test additional SNP's unless more are found in future for that Haplogroup

http://www.familytreedna.com/deepcla...oup-tests.aspx

If you are confident you fall in a certain Haplogroup the cheaper ways is that you can order that SNP test for just $29 plus transfer fee. But if you come back negative it could cost you more in the long run testing individual SNP's.

Have to weigh the pro's and con's

[MMaddi]

With a genetic distance of just 4 to multiple people who are R1b1a2a1a1b4, there's a good chance that's what you are too. Log into your FTDNA account and look at FTDNA's haplotree by going to the Haplotree page in the Y-DNA menu at the top of the page. Then click on the orange box labeled "View My Haplotree."

Assuming you're R1b1a2a1a1b4, you can see all the SNPs under R1b1a2a1a1b4 the deep clade test will include. If you're R1b1a2a1a1b4 (L21+), you may or not be positive for one of the downstream SNPs.

However, if you look at the ISOGG tree, which is more complete, you'll see that there are more known SNPs downstream from L21, which are not included in FTDNA's tree, mainly the DF and Z SNPs. You can see ISOGG's R tree at http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

So, if you order the deep clade test, you'll get a good, but not necessarily complete idea of your subclade. FTDNA is expected to update their tree sometime this year, at which time many or most of the DF and Z SNPs would be included. That means those SNPs would be included in the deep clade test. Many customers had expected that FTDNA would have updated their tree by sometime this month, but maybe it will be this summer.

It may be that your best strategy is to wait until they update the tree and deep clade test before you order it. Since the deep clade test now costs $139, you'd want to wait until you get more complete coverage of SNPs before you order. The other option is to order L21 as a single SNP for $29, as mentioned above, and then, if positive, test some of the DF or Z SNPs downstream from it. They're available in the Advanced Orders menu at $29 per SNP. You can order L21 from your Haplotree page with the "Choose your own SNP" option.

You might want to consult with the administrators of the L21 Project, who may be able to look at your ysearch account and tell you which subclade you may belong to. You can find their addresses at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/

[Mike_]

I did see the L21 Project but was scared off by the big yellow warning that said don't join unless you have an L21 test result.

I think after your excellent advice I will do a single L21 test and if it is positive I will join the L21 project and seek further advice while waiting for FTDNA to update to the latest tree.

Cheers

[Lklundin]

Many customers had expected that FTDNA would have updated their tree by sometime this month, but maybe it will be this summer.

How does a kit administrator find out when this update has happened ?

Also, is there any forecast regarding a FTDNA summer sale ?

Thanks.

[MMaddi]

I did see the L21 Project but was scared off by the big yellow warning that said don't join unless you have an L21 test result.

I think after your excellent advice I will do a single L21 test and if it is positive I will join the L21 project and seek further advice while waiting for FTDNA to update to the latest tree.

Cheers

I wasn't suggesting that you join without an L21+ result. But I think if you wrote the administrators and asked them to look at your ysearch account and advise you on SNP testing, they would probably do that.

Then you may be able to spend money on just a few targeted single SNP purchases and avoid spending $139 for the deep clade test in the future.

[MMaddi]

How does a kit administrator find out when this update has happened ?

Also, is there any forecast regarding a FTDNA summer sale ?

Thanks.

I'm sure that FTDNA will send out an e-mail to project administrators notifying them that the yDNA haplotree has been updated. That's a big event at FTDNA and administrators need to know that so they can reorganize their yDNA results table. Then it's the job of the project administrators, especially for haplogroup projects, to notify project members.

I don't know if FTDNA will have a summer sale. You should contact [email protected] and ask them.

[razyn]

I'm sure that FTDNA will send out an e-mail to project administrators notifying them that the yDNA haplotree has been updated.

You should only live so long. Meanwhile, there are many better places to look for more current information. Even ISOGG, which is normally far from current, but does get updated more often than the sketchy thing that passes for a haplotree on the FTDNA site.

The projects themselves are pretty good sources, though. You can look at the results on the L21 project without being a member of it. Colorized results take longer to load, but show up off-modals very clearly. To find your best match, you should look for your own off-modals; at 67 markers most people have at least a few. Then the people in the project who look most like you (via shared off-modal values) -- but have taken SNP tests, or a very recent Deep Clade test -- can give you the best indication of what SNP test you might purchase for $29, saving a lot of time and some money.

Here's Thomas Krahn's draft tree for L21 and its numerous subclades:

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?nam...arent=56121532

That's from the FTDNA lab. The haplotree on the website is never going to catch up with it -- nor will things that you read in books or academic papers, which went to printers or peer review anywhere from six months to two years before printed copies were on the market. And meanwhile these SNPs are being discovered at an exponentially increasing rate, at least for a while yet.

[1798]

FTDNA have given me a predicted Haplogroup of R1b1a2.

Should I get a Deep Clade test to confirm this and get a more detailed answer or order some specific SNP tests instead.

When I look at my Haplogroup Origins page it shows R1b1a2a1a1b4 for 12, 25 and 67 markers exact match. So does that suggest I am R1b1a2a1a1b4?

I tested on YSearch and found a genetic distance of 4 to a few people who said they are R1b1a2a1a1b4.

My YSearch id is BERJU

I am asuming the answer will be to do the Deep Clade and then look at invididual SNPs. I just don't want to miss out on a short cut in terms of time and cost if it is a possibility.

My motivation is to find out more about the origins of my surname which from my paper trail is Scots/Irish.

I know there are a lot of similar posts asking about Deep Clade but as I am a complete novice at this I can't work out what to do in my situation. Any advice including the most basic would be great.


Thanks

You could check out Robert Casey's SNP predictor and see which clade you belong to.

[Mike_]

You could check out Robert Casey's SNP predictor and see which clade you belong to.

Thanks for that. Very useful. It says

S190
Probability of testing positive: 90%
Fingerprint match: 9
Fingerprint breadth: 9
Fingerprint match percentage: 100%
Genetic Distance: 3

I have also come across this project for which I seem to match remarkably well.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/lsc/

Now to find out more about them...

I did decide to go for the L21 SNP test. An estimated 6 week wait unfortunately.

[nathanm]

I did decide to go for the L21 SNP test. An estimated 6 week wait unfortunately.

Results for individual SNPs seem to come in a lot sooner than the estimated completion date. I doubt you'll even have to wait half that time.

[Mike_]

Results for individual SNPs seem to come in a lot sooner than the estimated completion date. I doubt you'll even have to wait half that time.

Result is in after 2 weeks and was positive.

[k.o.gran]

Result is in after 2 weeks and was positive.

Welcome to R-L21!

-Kai

[gtc]

Result is in after 2 weeks and was positive.

Okay, plenty more SNPs to test for below L21 if you're so inclined. I'm sure the project admins will be able to guide you with that.

[Mike_]

Okay, plenty more SNPs to test for below L21 if you're so inclined. I'm sure the project admins will be able to guide you with that.

Yes, getting plenty guidance but slightly conflicting.

I think I'm going to wait for S190 SNP test to appear on FTDNA (if it does) and also upgrade to 111 STR markers.