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MRCA within 7 gens with a different surname?

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  • MRCA within 7 gens with a different surname?

    My surname is Robinson. I am R1b1a2. There are zero Robinsons in my YNDA matches, and a couple Robertsons. Most of my YDNA matches have different names, but there is one surname that comes up a lot - Fleming/Flemming. So I conclude that there is possibly a NPE somewhere, or a name change. I can trace back to my third great grandfather, a Robinson, who was born in 1836. I have been trying to locate his father for a couple years now, but I started thinking. Is it possible he is not my great grandfather at all? I never considered it until just now, but could one of my grandmothers have had an affair with a Fleming male? My father was the one I had tested, so I guess the only way I could definitely determine this is to test a male descendant of his that is not descended from my second great grandfather? Eg, test a male descendant of one of his other sons? Assuming that my gg grandmother didn't have multiple children with another man, we should share the same DNA I'm guessing.

    Secondly, if the different matches are due to a name change, does it mean that one of my paternal grandfather's names was most likely Fleming within the last 300 years, and I guess the line that changed to Robinson just didn't prosper as well as the Fleming line, which is the reason I don't have any YDNA results with other Robinsons?

    If you'll look at the attachment, which shows my YDNA compared to others in the Fleming family DNA project, I just have so many more close matches with them than I do Robinsons.

    Thanks for any help.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Originally posted by sbrobin View Post
    So I conclude that there is possibly a NPE somewhere, or a name change. I can trace back to my third great grandfather, a Robinson, who was born in 1836. I have been trying to locate his father for a couple years now, but I started thinking. Is it possible he is not my great grandfather at all?
    I know the feeling !

    In my case, through many years of paper discovery, I found that my G G GF b1831 actually was NPE with father [blank] and that G G GF used his mother's maiden name. My surname, then, becomes a maternal/maternal on my paternal side at that time if you get my drift. So far, I have never been able to pinpoint his father (Mr Blank) and thus the continuance of my paternal line.

    It's why I am trying the DNA detour. No luck yet with really close matches, but a couple of matches (GD3+) of about the same timeframe and location. One day, it will all come together.

    So will yours.

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    • #3
      I have the same problem and this is what got me thinking it was time to move on.

      Two matches with the same surname different than my with MRCA of 10 to 14 generation or 250 to 350 years. One located in Florida the other in Wales England. This information is not the reason I decided move on.

      Third match with same last name as my first two matches with MRCA of 6 generation or 150 years. My road block was born about 150 years ago and this got me to realize I was not who I thought I was. This match was from Texas.

      Forth match another MRCA of 10 generation or 250 years. This match is from Alabama.

      Fifth match tested at FTDNA 67 markers tested and had a Genetic Distance of 6 or about 16 generation. This match is from Australia 3rd or 4th generation Ausie and his family came from Cheshire England, Wales has traced his line back to Shropshire England.

      All these matches show a stepping back in time with the name being the same.

      Alabama test at FTDNA 67 markers and has gone from MRCA of 10 or 250 years to a genetic Distance of 1.

      Explanation of results 1-2 Tightly Related

      65-66/67 You share the same surname (or a variant) with another male and you mismatch by only one or two 'points' at only one marker. It's most likely that you matched 36/37 or 37/37 on a previous Y-DNA test. Very few people achieve this close level of a match. All confidence levels are well within the time frame that surnames were adopted in Western Europe.

      All my matches share the same last name

      Thinking one of my matches had done the deep clade test I did mine it turns out he didn't now I wait for someone to come along and test that. Deep Clade is the key you might match your matches or you might not. If you do match than your related if not your not. See if any of your matches have done the Deep Clade test. I would recommend you do the Deep Clade test its about 100 dollars.
      Last edited by EdwardRHill; 17 November 2011, 11:09 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by sbrobin View Post
        My surname is Robinson. I am R1b1a2. There are zero Robinsons in my YNDA matches, and a couple Robertsons. Most of my YDNA matches have different names, but there is one surname that comes up a lot - Fleming/Flemming. So I conclude that there is possibly a NPE somewhere, or a name change. I can trace back to my third great grandfather, a Robinson, who was born in 1836. I have been trying to locate his father for a couple years now, but I started thinking. Is it possible he is not my great grandfather at all? I never considered it until just now, but could one of my grandmothers have had an affair with a Fleming male? My father was the one I had tested, so I guess the only way I could definitely determine this is to test a male descendant of his that is not descended from my second great grandfather? Eg, test a male descendant of one of his other sons? Assuming that my gg grandmother didn't have multiple children with another man, we should share the same DNA I'm guessing.

        Secondly, if the different matches are due to a name change, does it mean that one of my paternal grandfather's names was most likely Fleming within the last 300 years, and I guess the line that changed to Robinson just didn't prosper as well as the Fleming line, which is the reason I don't have any YDNA results with other Robinsons?

        If you'll look at the attachment, which shows my YDNA compared to others in the Fleming family DNA project, I just have so many more close matches with them than I do Robinsons.

        Thanks for any help.
        Does your attachment mean your test was with ancestry and not with FTDNA? or did you just manually enter your values at ancestry?

        Based on what shown, I wouldn't put much value in anything below the Dilkes match due to the number of markers tested. I would suggest manually entering your values and searching for possible matches at ysearch and SMGF. Also check out FTDNA Robinson surname projects or other surname projects for surnames that come up in your matches for other possible comparisons.

        If your test is just with ancestry, you may want to look at FTDNA's upload option and perhaps look into testing more markers with them that may not be available for testing with any of their competitors.

        I would hesitate to assume your Y DNA is definitely associated with a different surname without a larger number of markers tested and several very close matches with that other surname. The lack of some of the fast moving markers available in FTDNA's Y26-37 panel, or opportunity to look at other markers in their Y67 upgrade, can make it difficult to obtain certainty from Y STR test with ancestry. Prior to FTDNA having an upload option, I had found 3 matches on ancestry that I was lucky enough to convince regarding the value of Y STR testing with FTDNA, all of which turned out to share a common ancestor, two of which today carry different surnames due to NPEs and was later able to help them figure out where their NPE took place and where their YDNA most likely came from.
        Last edited by Geneadict; 17 November 2011, 02:56 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
          Does your attachment mean your test was with ancestry and not with FTDNA? or did you just manually enter your values at ancestry?
          Sorry, I don't know how I missed this reply. I had the comprehensive genome test done on my father at FTDNA - 67 markers. I have uploaded the results to gedmatch.com and ysearch and ancestry. I haven't uploaded to SMGF because I was under the impression you had to purchase one of their kits to participate. I have not really found out anything useful at all, except for one confirmed FF match. I don't know if I just don't know how to take advantage of my results or if there is nothing yet for me to find. I checked the results under the Robinson project at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ion=ycolorized (I am kit 199073) but it doesn't look like there are any close matches to me. I only have two matches on a 67 marker - a Fleming with 4 steps and a Robertson with 7 steps.

          I wasn't expecting anything magical, was just hoping for better y results. I guess maybe over the next twenty years I'll hopefully get lucky as more people start to test.

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          • #6
            Do any of the Flemings come up in your FTDNA match results or Fleming/Fleming surname project or ysearch? If so, how close?

            FYI - you can open a free account/profile with SMGF and search their database for matches without doing any testing with them.

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            • #7
              Thanks for the SMGF tip, I'll do a search this weekend. Yes, I have one fleming with a genetic distance of 5 on 67 markers (I am user PMCHU). I realize this distance is probably around 400 years or so, but every other site I do a search on, including ftdna and ancestry, I usually have lots of flemings.

              http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...haplo=&region=

              I fleming

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              • #8
                I am finding this a helpful thread. As I posted elsewhere, I just got one match (37 markers, 3 steps away) - only match I have - but he has a different surname (predicted country, but different region). I can trace my line back on that line only to migration to the US in 1850 and birth around 1820 (with same surname as I currently have), but no further back than that. I am waiting for him to email back but in his profile he lists his most distant ancestor also as 1850. The Tip between us for when our common ancestor lived is as follows:


                Generations Percentage
                4 29.03%
                8 68.80%
                12 89.22%
                16 96.74%
                20 99.09%
                24 99.76%
                28 99.94%

                So far, i'm concluing our common ancestor is not after 1820, which is about 8 generations. that is consistent with the chart, saying only 69 percent probablity our ancestory is within 8 generations (actually, rats, more complicated. my ancestor born in 1820 isn't even close to being 8 generations ago. counting me, he is 5 generations ago).

                well was going to say suggests high probability of name change or false paternity/adoption somewhere from 1820 back to 1600 but now I see it can even be alot further back if 200 years ago is only 5 generations for me. 5 generations every 200 years would mean that 12 generations would be 500 years ago, which is back to 1500 and then there is still a 10% chance our common ancestor is before that. That name change/adoption (between 1500-1820) occurred either in his family or my family or both.

                thats as far as I've gotten. (oh and since same country, that is consistent with the name change occurring early before both lines came to the US)

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