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**Jim Barrett** · 21 October 2011, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Lime View Post

Another cousin has given me his subclade from a NatGeo test several years old: Haplogroup R1b, M343 (Subclade R1b1a2, M269) Thanks! Lime

I would start by asking this cousin to have his results transferred to FTDNA. This can be done for free. Then when FTDNA has an upgrade sale you might have him upgrade to 67. You could all go together to help with the cost if needed.

I'd rather see the four of you at 67 markers that to see some of you at 111. I think your current 67 marker matches are good.

Are you having other matches with other surnames?

Remember the "Probabilities" show are based on averages of many people. They could be high or low for your small group.

**nathanm** · 21 October 2011, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by Lime View Post

DYS460 CDY DYS534 we think the paper trail shows

1. 11 38-39 waiting for test common ancestor 6 gen.
2. 12 37-39 15 common ancestor 6 gen.
3. 13 38-39 16 common ancestor 7 gen.

CDY is the fastest mutating marker, by far. Some people exclude it completely in MRCA calculations.

Does your paper trail show which branch of the family tree the cousins are on? The mutations on DYS460 suggest a few scenarios: If the ancestral value was 11, then it would appear 2 & 3 share a more recent ancestor than with 1. If it was 13, the situation would be reversed, and 1 & 2 share a more recent ancestor than with 3. If the ancestral value was 12, then 1 & 3 are probably descendants on different branches. Explaining the relationships could help, and testing more cousins from other branches would too. The cousin who tested with the Genographic project would only have the first 12 markers if you transfer results, but it's a start.

**Lime** · 21 October 2011, 12:45 PM

Ok, will do.

I have one more cousin who is listed in YSearch. He tested with the Relative Genetics company which is out of business, but I found this on the FTDNA website:

"When Relative Genetics ceased operations, they transferred all results to DNA Ancestry (Ancestry.com). Depending on the number of tested markers you now have in your Ancestry.com account (at least the Y-DNA33 or Y-DNA46), you may qualify for the Y-DNA Transfer. If you need help accessing your Ancestry.com account, you will need to contact their customer service. We cannot provide support for Ancestry.com."

I have his results which were made public, and it appears he has 42 markers, so if I contact him, all he has to do... is what? Take his results and contact FTDNA from this contact form http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx and ask for the transfer?

I just want to make it as simple as possible for them.

Thanks,

Lime

**nathanm** · 21 October 2011, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Lime View Post

I have his results which were made public, and it appears he has 42 markers, so if I contact him, all he has to do... is what? Take his results and contact FTDNA from this contact form http://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx and ask for the transfer?

No, they were already transferred to Ancestry.com when they bought Relative Genetics. But if you want to have the same markers as FTDNA tests, the transfers here are listed separately on the Products page. It's $19 to merely transfer the results, and $58 for transfer plus a new FTDNA test. That's a great deal!

Is it 42 markers total, or are a couple of those possibly multi-copy markers with two values, which they're counting as two markers each? The current Ancestry tests are for 33 or 46 markers.

**Lime** · 21 October 2011, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by nathanm View Post

Does your paper trail show which branch of the family tree the cousins are on? The mutations on DYS460 suggest a few scenarios: If the ancestral value was 11, then it would appear 2 & 3 share a more recent ancestor than with 1. If it was 13, the situation would be reversed, and 1 & 2 share a more recent ancestor than with 3. If the ancestral value was 12, then 1 & 3 are probably descendants on different branches. Explaining the relationships could help, and testing more cousins from other branches would too. The cousin who tested with the Genographic project would only have the first 12 markers if you transfer results, but it's a start.

Thank you for this response! I didn't see it before. There is one more cousin I have as a "control" and his DYS460 is 12. (He was tested by another company and I just emailed him to see if he'd add his results to the family, but in the meantime, I know his values for most markers and the DYS460 is 12. He is generation 6 of one single original immigrant ancestor.)

What we have is an original immigrant ancestor who is well documented. Lines one and two are from two different lines of his sons, therefore lines 1 & 2 should match more closely by one generation than line 3, except DNA donor 1 is a generation younger than the other two, so I suppose that skews things?

The paper trail suggests that the person number 1 in my original post above is a cousin of the control, and from the same son of the original immigrant ancestor, but off by a generation. So he'd be 8th generation and the control is 7th generation.

Person 2 we think is from a "lost son" of the original immigrant ancestor and he'd be the same 7th gen as the control, but a different line (different son) from the original immigrant ancestor.

Person 3 should be from the brother of our original immigrant ancestor, and would be the same generation as the control, but because we are talking about the brother, I guess we'd have to add one more generation to him to come up with a common ancestor.

Is that the information that will help sort this out, or is it too convoluted?

We are having trouble getting too many lines tested. A lot have daughtered out.

Thanks for your response, though, I think I am seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. This family has a million 100% markers at 12. I get multiple emails from FTDNA every week with 100% markers. My husband is a I1 and we haven't gotten even one 100% match at 12!!!

Lime

**nathanm** · 21 October 2011, 08:01 PM

Being a generation or two different shouldn't hardly affect Y-DNA. What's more important is how the various branches of the family tree are related. Then you can identify where certain mutations were introduced, and new cousins who test could be placed relatively easily. I'm a little confused by your numbering, so I'll attempt to "draw" (via ASCII art) what I understand (C=control cousin, imm=immigrant ancestor, bro=his brother, etc.):

Code:

       MRCA
      /    \
     |      |
    imm    bro
   /  \     |
  |    |    |
 / \   |    |
|   |  |    |
C   1  2    3

Did I get it about right? If so, 1 and the control should have a smaller (or equal) genetic distance (GD) than to 2. Control, 1, and 2 should have smaller GD to each other than to 3.

**Lime** · 22 October 2011, 06:34 AM

Excellent job!

This is exactly it, and I contacted the Nat Geo cousin so there might be one more branch from imm. If I go farther afield, to other people with the same surname we are not sure are in the family, I have to make a public plea on Facebook and I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet.

MRCA
/ \
| |
imm bro
/ \ |
| | |
/ \ | |
| | | |
C 1 2 3[/CODE]

Did I get it about right? If so, 1 and the control should have a smaller (or equal) genetic distance (GD) than to 2. Control, 1, and 2 should have smaller GD to each other than to 3.[/QUOTE]

I didn't realize the generations didn't matter. That's interesting. I can't wait for the next batch of tests! (Plus I have been asked to get a special SNP test, so it looks like I'll be learning a lot!)

Thank you so much for your help.

Lime

**Lime** · 24 October 2011, 12:09 PM

I just found out that the control cousin was at 23andme. That isn't listed on the products page as being from Sorenson labs... and since so many of the markers didn't have the same designation, it is looking bad for my transfer idea.

"This option is available for customers who have 46-marker Y-DNA results from a third party company that used the Sorenson's laboratory (this includes tests performed by Ancestry, GeneTree, and Sorenson's SMGF). You may use this option to upload your results to the Family Tree DNA database. The $19 fee will provide you with a Family Tree DNA personal page which will allow you to..."

Is there a way around this? One thing I was thinking was to go to Ysearch, but I am the gatekeeper for three sets of DNA and I don't see where I can have more than one set of results.

Thanks,

Suzy

**nathanm** · 24 October 2011, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by Lime View Post

I just found out that the control cousin was at 23andme. That isn't listed on the products page as being from Sorenson labs... and since so many of the markers didn't have the same designation, it is looking bad for my transfer idea.

"This option is available for customers who have 46-marker Y-DNA results from a third party company that used the Sorenson's laboratory (this includes tests performed by Ancestry, GeneTree, and Sorenson's SMGF). You may use this option to upload your results to the Family Tree DNA database. The $19 fee will provide you with a Family Tree DNA personal page which will allow you to..."

Is there a way around this? One thing I was thinking was to go to Ysearch, but I am the gatekeeper for three sets of DNA and I don't see where I can have more than one set of results.

Thanks,

Suzy

23andMe doesn't test STRs at all, so that cousin won't have a haplotype to input or import anywhere. However, they do test several SNPs on the Y chromosome to determine the haplogroup. If you want to find out the GD from that cousin, they'll need to order a brand new test.

**Lime** · 7 March 2013, 09:48 PM

Update: now with 111 markers each

Dear List, Does anybody want to take a crack at this now? Same query as above, but now with more markers.

I have 2 different individuals, 212083 and 161799, with 111 markers each. I can paste them, but the easiest way to see them is at the R U106 group. http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ion=ycolorized --> Page 3 if you don't get to the exact page.

They are listed next to each other in the list, but they dont' look all that close to me. ? The question is, are they 7th cousins, or are they not that close? The paper trail would suggest 7th cousins, but that is only if they are descendants of brothers of the original immigrant ancestor, which I can't prove-prove.

I guess I wonder how important the differences are. If they are fast or slow moving markers.

I'm also going to ask the group administrator to see if he has an opinion.

Thanks for any and all imput or just plain ole opinions you may have.

Lime

**Wing_Genealogis** · 8 March 2013, 07:37 AM

Looking at the two STR haplotypes, I counted 4 differences among the 111 markers (only 2 differences withing the first 67 markers).

They are certainly from the same family, and support your paper-trail connection.

Some families have a higher mutation rate than others. Within my own family (Wing) of the dozen or so family members tested, everyone is a GD of 2-6 from everyone else at 67 markers. We have a VERY early NPE (among one of the grandchildren) and all 4 of the individuals tested along this line are exact matches at 67 markers.

**Lime** · 9 March 2013, 05:24 AM

Excellent, thanks! I didn't realize it was as close as you counted.

I appreciate your look-see and feedback.

Lime

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67 markers match within 2 or 3, what do we do next?

67 markers match within 2 or 3, what do we do next?

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