Haplogroups and genetic distance.

[Zaru]

Happy New Year to you all.

I am trying to make more sense out of my Hg (R1b1b2a1b) of which my closest match is a gd of 21. I am also P-312+ so I am not questioning my Hg at all. I am awaiting L21 results if this turns out to be negative what else may I test for? I think that my subclade will be redefined as a gd of 21 as a closest match seems to be surreal. Even the folks at FTDNA admitted this to be so.

Cheers..

[Jim Barrett]

A genetic distance of 21 when looking at how many marker?

[Zaru]

A genetic distance of 21 when looking at how many marker?

68, but even the 35 and 25 are far away. But again, should that really matter in sub clade groupings? My thoughts on subclades is that they are supposed to be narrowing down( and perhaps they are as I am extremely distant from most within the database. My closest match is 4 at 25, but I also have some decent matches with some fellas who have not uploaded to Y-Search. Their haplotypes mirror mine somewhat with dys 393=12, 391=10. They have only tested 12 markers and are both a GD of 1 away from me, and both are French Canadian. They are R1b's for sure but do not have their subclades listed.

[Jim Barrett]

I'd try to get any one who was a close match at 12 or 25 markers to upgrade. I believe more markers from them would be of more value than a SNP test. You already know that you can have a big genetic difference from someone in your Haplogroup.

[Zaru]

I'd try to get any one who was a close match at 12 or 25 markers to upgrade. I believe more markers from them would be of more value than a SNP test. You already know that you can have a big genetic difference from someone in your Haplogroup.

I am awaiting a response from FTDNA to my question as to how we were scientifically grouped into R1b1b2a1b. The average GD between myself and the several others who tested 67-68 markers is 30+! I do not know if R-P312+ was the criteria or they just did not know where to put me. I would prefer just to remain R1b1c*. Do you know what the criteria is?

Cheers.

[MMaddi]

I am awaiting a response from FTDNA to my question as to how we were scientifically grouped into R1b1b2a1b. The average GD between myself and the several others who tested 67-68 markers is 30+! I do not know if R-P312+ was the criteria or they just did not know where to put me. I would prefer just to remain R1b1c*. Do you know what the criteria is?

Cheers.

I'm sure the fact that you tested P312+ is the reason for your inclusion in that subclade. P312 is the SNP that defines R1b1b2a1b in the present haplogroup tree.

[Zaru]

I'm sure the fact that you tested P312+ is the reason for your inclusion in that subclade. P312 is the SNP that defines R1b1b2a1b in the present haplogroup tree.

Buon Anno Mike!

Nice to hear from you. Any thoughts on why so great a differential in str's when we share the same snp?

My thought is that we are at the precipice of discovering many more snp's that will further define new subclades but the thought remains that we need to have more participants.

How are SNP's discovered? What is the relationship between STR haplogrouping and SNP subclading?

[MMaddi]

Buon Anno Mike!

Nice to hear from you. Any thoughts on why so great a differential in str's when we share the same snp?

My thought is that we are at the precipice of discovering many more snp's that will further define new subclades but the thought remains that we need to have more participants.

How are SNP's discovered? What is the relationship between STR haplogrouping and SNP subclading?

You have to realize that STR and SNP mutations are two independent processes. However, it is the case that those who are in the same subclade and share all the same SNPs started out from a common ancestor, whether it's the man who had the original subclade-defining SNP or some more recent common ancestor from whom all living members of the subclade descend. So, all subclade members start out from the haplotype of that common ancestor.

It is the case that there are certain distinctive marker values that are usually found at higher levels in one haplogroup or another. You can see this in a frequency table, by haplogroup, for the 67 markers that FTDNA tests - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....logy/yfreq.htm

In the case of R1b (or R1b1b2, defined by M269), it seems that all the most common subclades in Europe, whether P312+ or U106+ are young compared to the other major European haplogroups. And it seems that P312 and almost all its downstream subclades and U106 arose about 3,500-4,000 years ago and had a very quick population explosion. So all the subclades of R1b1b2 most common in Europe are very close in their STR modal values. They haven't had as long as the subclades of E or I or J to mutate. It's very difficult to distinguish them based on marker values.

However, since STR mutations are a random phenomenon, the mutation rates are only an average. Different paternal lines may mutate more frequently or more slowly. It seems that your paternal line has mutated more frequently than most in P312. That would be one reason to account for your high genetic distance from most in your subclade. I have a similar situation with my STR results.

I think it's quite possible that new SNPs are out there to discover and it may be haplotypes like yours that are far from the modal values that could harbor a new SNP. But there's no guarantee of that. It may just be that your paternal line has had a higher mutation rate in STRs than the average.

As far as how SNPs are discovered, that's mostly been done by population geneticists sequencing study participants' yDNA to look for differences at certain nucleotide bases. Given how many million nucleotide bases there are on the y chromosome and the small amount of men tested, there's a lot more to cover. The commercial company 23andMe is testing about 1,800 yDNA SNPs currently, based on SNPs found in databases that population geneticicts have. Most of these SNPs have only been found in one man and it's unknown where they sit on the haplogroup tree and whether it's just one paternal line that has that SNP. L21, which is downstream of P312, was discovered this fall through 23andMe testing. It's a major R1b1b2 SNP and seems to be present at high levels in Ireland and at moderate levels among men with Scottish, English, French and German ancestry. FTDNA does test for L21, but you have to order it from the "advanced orders" menu since it's not included in the deep clade R test yet.

[Zaru]

You have to realize that STR and SNP mutations are two independent processes. However, it is the case that those who are in the same subclade and share all the same SNPs started out from a common ancestor, whether it's the man who had the original subclade-defining SNP or some more recent common ancestor from whom all living members of the subclade descend. So, all subclade members start out from the haplotype of that common ancestor.

It is the case that there are certain distinctive marker values that are usually found at higher levels in one haplogroup or another. You can see this in a frequency table, by haplogroup, for the 67 markers that FTDNA tests - http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....logy/yfreq.htm

In the case of R1b (or R1b1b2, defined by M269), it seems that all the most common subclades in Europe, whether P312+ or U106+ are young compared to the other major European haplogroups. And it seems that P312 and almost all its downstream subclades and U106 arose about 3,500-4,000 years ago and had a very quick population explosion. So all the subclades of R1b1b2 most common in Europe are very close in their STR modal values. They haven't had as long as the subclades of E or I or J to mutate. It's very difficult to distinguish them based on marker values.

However, since STR mutations are a random phenomenon, the mutation rates are only an average. Different paternal lines may mutate more frequently or more slowly. It seems that your paternal line has mutated more frequently than most in P312. That would be one reason to account for your high genetic distance from most in your subclade. I have a similar situation with my STR results.

I think it's quite possible that new SNPs are out there to discover and it may be haplotypes like yours that are far from the modal values that could harbor a new SNP. But there's no guarantee of that. It may just be that your paternal line has had a higher mutation rate in STRs than the average.

As far as how SNPs are discovered, that's mostly been done by population geneticists sequencing study participants' yDNA to look for differences at certain nucleotide bases. Given how many million nucleotide bases there are on the y chromosome and the small amount of men tested, there's a lot more to cover. The commercial company 23andMe is testing about 1,800 yDNA SNPs currently, based on SNPs found in databases that population geneticicts have. Most of these SNPs have only been found in one man and it's unknown where they sit on the haplogroup tree and whether it's just one paternal line that has that SNP. L21, which is downstream of P312, was discovered this fall through 23andMe testing. It's a major R1b1b2 SNP and seems to be present at high levels in Ireland and at moderate levels among men with Scottish, English, French and German ancestry. FTDNA does test for L21, but you have to order it from the "advanced orders" menu since it's not included in the deep clade R test yet.

As always, your input is greatly appreciated and most valued. Thank you.

FTDNA has decided to test me for L21 as part of my deep clade test, partially because my results are taking far longer than expected. I do not know if there are other clandestine reasons but I'll take it. I had the same issue with ethnoancestry-the results took far longer than anticipated.

I have followed your thorough explanation with above average comprehension. Have we any conclusive regional evidence of P312+ but L21-? Is this a similar dividing line much like the Ht35 bunch?

I have noticed the new ancestral origins feature. I have been waiting for this function for years. My highest concentration is low at 1.1% with Belgium but significantly higher than all of the rest. I am lobbying to have the Isle of Man to be placed as a separate nation with its own anthropology. Being that they are grouped in with England it makes it difficult to have clarity. Much of this is reliant upon the participants I imagine.

[PDHOTLEN]

RE Ancestral Origins

I had a 60/67 match on my Ancestral Origins page, but it has disappeared! What happened to it? Although I can probably find it on the R1a Project site, that particular match identified the precise geographical origin (SE Norway). Anyway, I think some kind of explanation is in order!

R1a1a* & U5b2

[PDHOTLEN]

RE my above msg

Well, I can't find that person's entry in the R1a Project either. So maybe that person deleted it from this public record.

[PDHOTLEN]

help from elsewhere

I got surprising help on dna-forums.org. One message says that I have 3 DYS values that point to the northern west coast of Norway, and that they are quite common there (north of Bergen), but rare elsewhere. Maybe I should've been a fisherman. DYS19 = 17 + DYS388 = 10 + DYSa459a = 7.

[botoole60611]

sorry - posted to the wrong message

[botoole60611]

I understand the frustrations.

My time with FTDNA started with two swabs from the National Geographic project.

Deep subclade, 67 markers and the full mtDNA.

I am in 4 projects.

The statements below are based on using only only 67 marker data from each of the projects.

My haplogroup project (r1b1b2a1b4) shows no matches until I hit a GD of 19

In the null 425 group the closest GD was 6. There were 11 (out of 131 participants) that had a GD or 12 or less. There Haplogroups were R1b1b2 and R1b1ba1b5.

For the Ireland project there were 9 (out of 1066 participants with 67 markers) that had a GD or 12 or less. There Haplogroups were R1b1b2 and R1b1ba1b5.

I did find a GD of 67/3 with ysearch.org and that person’s origins are within 3 miles of a person I have a 67/6.

I’m adopted and am assuming Irish based on the fact that the only people I keep matching with any degree of closeness seem to be Irish with the 425 null marker.

[RussellL]

R1a1

As a newbie here, thank you for the reference to the dna forums group, which I had wondered about and will now register for. The subject is pretty daunting, and every little bit of extra information helps. I'm R1a1 based on the first panel of results of 12 markers, but waiting for the rest.