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origin of the Germanic tribes

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  • I'll leave it to the scholars

    I'm just an interested observer. My R1a1 roots are probably from the "satem" branch originally. Somehow my paternal ancestors found their way to Norway.

    I personally don't care whether the R1b clade introduced "centum" IE languages to western Europe or not. What Y-haplogroups were dominant in western Europe before R1b arrived, I wonder.

    R1a1* & U5b2

    Comment


    • RE Satem/Centum

      A brief glance at a section of a chapter in the Horse,Wheel,Language book somewhat clarifies the Satem/Centum linguistic feature of Indo-European. It pertains to sound shifting.

      Satem languages include Indo-Iranian, Slavic, Baltic, Armenian, Albanian, and possibly Phrygian of SE Europe. Most other Indo-European languages retain the ancestral Centum. I assume that included the Anatolian branch (Hittite), which some linguist say should be dropped from Indo-European due its antiquity (i.e. branched off from Pre-Indo-European, and not from Proto-Indo-European).

      Within the Satem group is a subgroup that shows the "Ruki Rule" (another sound shift). These are Slavic, Baltic and Indo-Iranian.

      Greek, although related to other SE Europe languages such as Albanian, Illyrian, Phrygian, etc. did not pick up Satem, so it shows that Greek split off before Satem kicked in.

      Whew! I'm confusing myself.

      R1a1* & U5b2

      Comment


      • Dna

        But some archaelogists and anthropologists believe that the
        Danes, Swedes and Norwegian are direct descendants of the ancient
        Cro-Magnon men from south France. By graciliation the so-called
        Corded/Nordic race arose. According to them the high presence of
        R 1b is the prove that there are no immigrations on large scale to
        Scandinavia in the Neolithic time.

        The agriculture and the presence of Indo-European languages
        are only an acculturalization practically without immigration.
        I read on the bodyform diversity, a website of www. nordish.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Haganus
          But some archaelogists and anthropologists believe that the
          Danes, Swedes and Norwegian are direct descendants of the ancient
          Cro-Magnon men from south France. By graciliation the so-called
          Corded/Nordic race arose. According to them the high presence of
          R 1b is the prove that there are no immigrations on large scale to
          Scandinavia in the Neolithic time.

          The agriculture and the presence of Indo-European languages
          are only an acculturalization practically without immigration.
          I read on the bodyform diversity, a website of www. nordish.com
          Not possible.

          R1 (M173), according to Karafet et al (2008), is only 18,500 years old. R1b (M343) would be even younger still. R1b1b2 (M269) is only roughly 10,000 years old.

          In other words, there is nothing R1 old enough to have been Cro-Magnon or to have been in Europe during the Paleolithic Period.
          Last edited by Stevo; 10 July 2008, 06:22 PM.

          Comment


          • origins

            Since the Ukraine has become more or less accepted as the Proto-Indo-European homeland along with the adjacent steppe belt to the east, and after reading well into that Horse, Wheel, Language book (skimming lightly over the deep archaeological details), there may be room for more than one haplotype connected with Proto-Ind- European.

            The book has the authors best guess in the form of his chart (after showing a couple of earlier charts by others). The Germanic offshoot, about 3300 BC, is out of the western zone, presumably western Ukraine. Italo-Celtic from a bit further east just inside the central zone, about 3000 BC. Balto-Slavic from a bit more to the east, but still in the central zone. Greek also from the central zone. Tocharian (3700 BC) & Indo-Iranian (2200 BC) are from the eastern zone. The Anatolian broke out first at 4200 BC from the western zone.

            Prior to the change from hunting-fishing-foraging, the inhabitants of the Ukraine, etc. grassland steppes lived along the river valleys, and were separated from other populations by inhospitable steppes (for people on foot). So different haplotypes could have inhabited different river valleys, maybe left over from their LGM refugia. I notice Y-hg "I" is very strongly represented in the Ukraine (pie chart), as is R1a.

            R1a1* & U5b2

            Comment


            • The I in Ukraine is mostly I2. It is practically absent in many centum IE populations and in many satem IE populations, as well. The same goes for I in general. It seems likely that I was already in Europe before PIE got there.

              Exactly where the PIE Urheimat was is highly controversial. Anthony endorses the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat idea of Gimbutas (and others before her) and Mallory.

              The Russian linguists Ivanov and Gamkrelidze place the PIE Urheimat in the Armenian highlands.

              Renfrew places it in Anatolia.

              There are other theories out there, as well.

              Comment


              • sure is controversial

                The author, Anthony, refers to Renfrew quite a few times, as he does to Russian investigators. But I got the impression that he thinks Renfrew is dated or not leading edge. He mentioned Armenia as a side event.

                The Pre-Anatolians, the first to actually invade the Balkans, on their way to Anatolia, around 4200 BC, seem to have extensively married indigenous females. Maybe it was a case of male IEs invading without their own women?. This is based on skull types in graves.

                The Atlantic Warm Period or Hypsithermal(spelling?) was from around 6000 to 4000 BC. After that, a severe cold period of a few hundred years kicked in (4200 - 3800 BC), when alpine glaciers advanced. This may have caused the eruption of the first Indo-Europeanns out of their Pontic Steppes homeland. It also corresponds to the first evidence of horseback riding by the Indo-Europeans.

                R1a1* & U5b2

                Comment


                • Naturally, each author thinks his own idea is best. Anthony is no exception.

                  Comment


                  • a little more into it (IE)

                    I haven't read thru the whole book yet, but there are some interesting tidbits. The dialect of archaic IE that evolved into Proto-Indo-European seems to have been located in the lower Volga region. That's where the invention of the feminine gender has been traced to. After that, there was rapid spreading along the northern steppes.

                    Pre-Germanic is implied by one branch that spread into the region of the Corded-ware People on the north side of the Carpathians, the language probably taken up by the indigenous people as a prestige language. Pre-Italo/Celtic moved into the region south of the Carpathians, and eventually up the Danube.

                    The eastern Proto-IE borrowed words from Caucasian language(s) from trade, the wheeled vehicle coming from Mesopotamia via the Caucasus.

                    R1a1* & U5b2

                    Comment


                    • apparent pre-Germanic roots

                      According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop."

                      On the other hand, there was a large volkswanderung of the pre-Italo-Celtic population into Hungary, those Proto-IE being pastoralists with large herds of various livestock, including valuable horses.

                      R1a1* & U5b2

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
                        According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop."

                        On the other hand, there was a large volkswanderung of the pre-Italo-Celtic population into Hungary, those Proto-IE being pastoralists with large herds of various livestock, including valuable horses.

                        R1a1* & U5b2
                        Now does that make any sense?

                        John

                        Comment


                        • Yeah, it makes sense

                          The people living in the North German/Plolish Plain prior to their adopting IE languages stayed pretty much where they were, allowing for back & forth pushing and shoving. Indo-European languages are a rather recent development, as far as human DNA goes. Apparently there was no large scale invasion by a pre-Germanic horde into the northern plains.


                          R1a1* & U5b2
                          Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 15 July 2008, 11:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
                            According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop"

                            . . .

                            R1a1* & U5b2
                            Sorry. Don't buy it.

                            If language change worked that way, why didn't the Anglo-Saxons in England learn Norman French to be "in the loop"?

                            Proto-Germanic began in the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures of NW Germany and the Netherlands, which, according to Mallory, is the consensus among Germanicists.

                            Comment


                            • Stevo & PDHOTLEN:

                              I have to agree with Stevo here. The argument that language spread to non-speakers by way of a client-patron relationship is weak. I could imagine the indigenous populations being really impressed by the horse, the wheel, etc. & probably borrowing words (as the English did from the French), but I can't go for total replacement. The new speakers would appear to either be borrowing a few words from the old language, or borrowing a few words from the incoming language.

                              We need to look for the missing factor... women. If everything else is equal a child will tend to learn language from the mother; she has far more influence than the father in the language forming years (under age 5). Usually, this point is moot, since mother & father speak the same language..., but what if they don't? I have suggested in the past that the mother's language will prevail.

                              Bryan Sykes pointed out a few years ago that the Basques were the only European group that appeared to completely lack mt-J (he called her Jasmine) & Jasmine was supposedly associated with the spread of Neolithic farming from the Near East.

                              Perhaps the PIE speakers tended to offer daughters to neighboring groups who were becoming clients, perhaps to make the clients feel comfortable with the arrangement. Perhaps the PIE speakers negotiated such an arrangement with Old Europe (the civilization that lasted from 6000 BC to 4000 BC in the Balkans).

                              The collapse of Old Europe happened fairly close in time to the spread of Neolithic farming all across habitable parts of Europe -could it be that this collapse was really a diaspora & the women of Old Europe (who may have already become blond as an adaptation to drinking milk into adulthood), were quickly dispersed across the landscape as wives.

                              This may prove to be complete nonsense, but it is a point that I just though up & wanted to mention.

                              Timothy Peterman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Stevo
                                Sorry. Don't buy it.

                                If language change worked that way, why didn't the Anglo-Saxons in England learn Norman French to be "in the loop"?

                                Proto-Germanic began in the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures of NW Germany and the Netherlands, which, according to Mallory, is the consensus among Germanicists.
                                Really, if we go back even further, the people in Normandy should have been speaking Danish or another scandinavian language which would then have taken over in England. Of course, after the Glorious Revolution (really an invasion from my perspective) perhaps the people in England should now be speaking Dutch.

                                I'm with Stevo on this one.

                                John

                                Comment

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