origin of the Germanic tribes

[PDHOTLEN]

comment about pre-historic Iberia

After taking another peek at my "Empires of the Word" book, I see I may have gotten something backward. The author is offering a second hypothesis on the origin of Celt-Iberian. It may have been a result of infusion of a Atlantic Celt lingua franca from the coastal north, including the British Isles. The Punic trade routes along the coast tied those areas together.

Also, he referred to the indigenous Iberian language, which sounds like a non-Indoeuropean language. Another apparently non-Indoeuropean language was Ligurian; judging by another map.

Lusitanian used "P", which the neighboring Celts did not.

[PDHOTLEN]

R1b vs. IE in Iberia?

Since R1b dominates the Y-DNA in the Iberian peninsula, and since they first arrived long before the Romans and successors, and since most of the indigenous languages there seem not to have been Indo-European, it looks like the early R1b invaders/usurpers did not bring IE languages with them.

R1a1* & U5b2

[PDHOTLEN]

got my book

I picked up the horse, wheel & language book I ordered. It is heftier than I expected - & hard cover. So it'll take my old eyes a while to read thru it. But it looks interesting!

R1a1* & U5b2

[Stevo]

Since R1b dominates the Y-DNA in the Iberian peninsula, and since they first arrived long before the Romans and successors, and since most of the indigenous languages there seem not to have been Indo-European, it looks like the early R1b invaders/usurpers did not bring IE languages with them.

R1a1* & U5b2

R1b1b2 dominates all of Western Europe. Its distribution is essentially co-terminous with centum Indo-European languages.

We do not know the haplogroups of the original inhabitants of the Iberian Peninsula, but R-M269 is not old enough to have been there during the last Ice Age, and Dr. Ken Nordtvedt and others recently estimated the age of R-S116 at between 4,000 and 5,000 years.

There were a number of Indo-European languages spoken in the Iberian Peninsula, including Q-Celtic. It seems almost certain they were brought to Iberia by R-M269 males.

When you read Anthony's The Horse, the Wheel and Language, pay attention to the centum/satem split and the order in which the various daughter languages left the IE homeland.

Try this exercise on for size.

1. Look at a map of Indo-European languages in Eurasia for overall distribution.
2. Look at the split between the centum and satem branches of Indo-European (note the Tocharian/centum exception in the East from Map 1 above).
3. Now look at a map of the distribution of R1 (M173).
4. Lastly, look at maps showing the distribution of R1b and R1a.

Notice how map 1 and map 3 are pretty much coterminous?

Notice how much maps 2 and 4 mirror each other?

[PDHOTLEN]

yes, but...

There were non-Indo-European languages in Iberia and SW Europe before Indo-European languages arrived. I think the earliest R1b's arrived in Iberia before (?) Indo-European took hold within the R1b clade, assuming that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken by an R1a population somewhere in the Ukraine or southern Russia. Some of those indigenous non-Indo-European (pre-Roman Empire) languages are identified and named. Etruscan and apparently Basque (Aquitanian) came from elsewhere, as maybe Raetian. But who knows what new discoveries tomorrow will bring.

[T E Peterman]

Stevo's observations are right on the mark. If R1b spoke a now extinct language, it must have been similar to the language spoken by R1a; if PIE was the language os R1a, certainly the R1b people were NOT speaking something as exotic as Caucasian, Uralic, or Semitic languages.

I'm not sure about the current estimated date for R1a breaking away from R1, or R1b breaking away from R1. Nor am I sure of the demographic means. I see two possibilities:

R1 divides into two or more groups. One group incurs the R1a set of mutations; the other group incurs the R1b set of mutations.

Or:

R1 remains one cohesive population. The set of R1a mutations occur & the set of R1b mutations occur. The one population speaks the same language. After a thousand years or whatever, the population splits in two. Genetic drift causes R1b to rise to majority status in the western group & causes R1a to rise to majority status in the eastern group.

Whenever the group divides, whether in the first or second scenario, the mother language will split into daughter languages.

The R haplogroup might be considerably younger than first estimated. When population geneticists examined the modern distribution of R1a & R1b in Europe, they assumed that with the sheer number of people involved, both groups had to be really old. But it could be that a fairly new population, a mere offshoot of the P group came upon some technologies that really amplified population growth; causing a pseudo-founder appearance in Europe.

The technologies that the R group may have brought along include: dog domestication in Central Asia, possibly Near Eastern agriculture, horse domestication on the steppes, & possibly bronze & iron technologies, as well as a whole cluster of other things; this could have fueled unbridled population growth, which led to the massive expansion of the R haplogroup.

R probably expanded at the expense of the G haplogroup & possibly I, J, & E3b.

Timothy Peterman

[Stevo]

There were non-Indo-European languages in Iberia and SW Europe before Indo-European languages arrived. I think the earliest R1b's arrived in Iberia before (?) Indo-European took hold within the R1b clade, assuming that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken by an R1a population somewhere in the Ukraine or southern Russia. Some of those indigenous non-Indo-European (pre-Roman Empire) languages are identified and named. Etruscan and apparently Basque (Aquitanian) came from elsewhere, as maybe Raetian. But who knows what new discoveries tomorrow will bring.

You're "assuming that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken by an R1a population somewhere in the Ukraine or southern Russia."

R1a is strongly associated with satem Indo-European but present to only a very limited extent in many centum-speaking areas and absent from some altogether.

The oldest Indo-European languages were all centum languages and, according to Anthony, left the PIE homeland first. Among those languages were Celtic, Italic, and Tocharian. R1b1b2 is strong where all three were spoken, and that is peculiar in the case of Tocharian, since it was spoken in what is now NW China.

As for non-IE languages being present in Iberia, what does that mean? There are plenty of non-IE languages in many places where there is a lot of R1a, like India, where millions of people speak Dravidian, and in Central and Western Asia, where millions speak Turkic languages.

My own opinion is that PIE arose among a primarily R1 (M173) population. Centum (the older form of Indo-European) was carried to the West by people who were mostly R-M269. Satem (the younger form of PIE) was carried East by people who were mostly R-M17.

We know R-M269 came from Central or Western Asia, because that is where it has its greatest diversity and that is where its closest non-R-M269 cousins are found (like R1a, N, O, and Q). Were you aware that the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region in Russia are over 50% R-M269 overall and have over 82% R-M269 in some places? There are about 3 million Bashkirs.

[J Man]

You're "assuming that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken by an R1a population somewhere in the Ukraine or southern Russia."

R1a is strongly associated with satem Indo-European but present to only a very limited extent in many centum-speaking areas and absent from some altogether.

The oldest Indo-European languages were all centum languages and, according to Anthony, left the PIE homeland first. Among those languages were Celtic, Italic, and Tocharian. R1b1b2 is strong where all three were spoken, and that is peculiar in the case of Tocharian, since it was spoken in what is now NW China.

As for non-IE languages being present in Iberia, what does that mean? There are plenty of non-IE languages in many places where there is a lot of R1a, like India, where millions of people speak Dravidian, and in Central and Western Asia, where millions speak Turkic languages.

My own opinion is that PIE arose among a primarily R1 (M173) population. Centum (the older form of Indo-European) was carried to the West by people who were mostly R-M269. Satem (the younger form of PIE) was carried East by people who were mostly R-M17.

We know R-M269 came from Central or Western Asia, because that is where it has its greatest diversity and that is where its closest non-R-M269 cousins are found (like R1a, N, O, and Q). Were you aware that the Bashkirs of the Volga-Ural region in Russia are over 50% R-M269 overall and have over 82% R-M269 in some places? There are about 3 million Bashkirs.

You make some good points Stevo. To me as well it does seem likely that the PIE languages developed among R-M269 bearing people. The R-M269 found among modern Turkic and Altaic peoples may be an old substratum of PIE people that were assimilated into the Turkic and Altaic cultures.

[Johnserrat]

There were non-Indo-European languages in Iberia and SW Europe before Indo-European languages arrived. I think the earliest R1b's arrived in Iberia before (?) Indo-European took hold within the R1b clade, assuming that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken by an R1a population somewhere in the Ukraine or southern Russia. Some of those indigenous non-Indo-European (pre-Roman Empire) languages are identified and named. Etruscan and apparently Basque (Aquitanian) came from elsewhere, as maybe Raetian. But who knows what new discoveries tomorrow will bring.

There is actually no evidence for any non-IE languages being spoken in Europe prior to IE. The Etruscans likely came "rather" recently from the near east to Italy in about 1,100 BC. Simply because a non-IE language is found in Europe does not mean it necessarily preceded IE languages. The Basque language remains somewhat more of a mystery, although genetically its population is fairly typically southern european.

John

[PDHOTLEN]

Neolithic farmers preceded IE

I noticed that my newest book aquisition, "The Horse, The Wheel, and Language" makes the tentative conclusion that I arrived at independently. And is simply that Neolithic farmers or farming technology spread to western Europe well before Indo-European languages spread there.

Also, that theoretically, there were not only non-Indo-European languages in western Europe prior to the IE influx, there were whole families of now extinct languages there occupying relatively small areas (similar to central Africa & New Guinea today and the Americas prior to Columbus).

I'm not making specific connections to Y-DNA markers since I'm not knowledgeable in that area.

R1a1* & U5b2

[Stevo]

Here's a map I created at Google Maps that gives a general picture of the spread of centum/R-M269 Indo-European and satem/R-M17 Indo-European:

http://tinyurl.com/6lsurz

Blue for centum/R-M269 and red for satem/R-M17. You can move the map around and use the device on the left to magnify or reduce it.

The centum languages are generally the more archaic and would have left the homeland first. The satem languages spread later.

There is a clear connection between R1 (M173) and the Indo-European languages in general and a clear connection between R-M269 and the centum IE languages and R-M17 and the satem IE languages.

Note the centum-speaking Tocharians heading off to the east, the exception among the centum speakers. Yet there is to this day a fairly high frequency of R-M269 among the Uyghurs of the Tarim Basin of NW China, where the Tocharians once lived.

[Oriel]

Origin of R1b1b2g

Can anyone help out with this haplogroup? I am U106+ and rs34276300-.I live in Ireland and I believe I come from the Celts.I have done some research on my family and my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years.I have 67 markers tested and the closed person to me is 15 gd of.

Oriel

[MMaddi]

Can anyone help out with this haplogroup? I am U106+ and rs34276300-.I live in Ireland and I believe I come from the Celts.I have done some research on my family and my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years.I have 67 markers tested and the closed person to me is 15 gd of.

Oriel

What's your ysearch ID? I'll take a look at it.

As someone who's tested U106+, you're invited to join the R1b-U106 Project. Our website is at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/ Submit a join request by clicking on the link in the upper left hand corner labelled "REQUEST TO JOIN THIS GROUP." Then just follow the directions you'll be given to submit the request. With a U106+ result, this is merely a formality - you'll be accepted as a member.

Regarding the deep ancestry of those who are U106+, it's regarded by most genetic genealogists as indicating northern European ancestry. Some, myself included, regard it as possibly indicating Germanic deep ancestry. Many of our project members have British Isles ancestry, including some Irish. If the deep ancestry is Germanic, then this would indicate that their ancestors possibly came to the British Isles from across the North Sea during the period the Angles and Saxons came after the Romans left the British Isles. Or the migration could have been earlier.

Mike Maddi
R1b-U106 Project Co-Administrator

[PDHOTLEN]

nice map!

I don't know how to shade in a quote from a previous message.

The map presentation by Stevo, a couple of messages back, is very helpful in providing a quick impression for anyone interested in this thread.

I was not tested for M17; instead for M198, which I am positive for (R1a1).

The first five chapters in "The Horse, The Wheel, and Language" covers the seemingly latest theory about the Ind0-European Homeland (Ukraine & southern Russia), and the various branchings from Proto-Indo-European. It agrees with Stevo. Of course the book does not go into DNA.

If R1b was already in place before the spread of IE languages to western Europe, then IE diffused into the dominant R1b after they moved westward or evolved in situ, I would think. R1b may have been the carriers of agriculture, which explains its dominance. IE spread after agriculture was well established in most areas.

R1a1* & U5b2

[Stevo]

Thanks for the compliment on my map, PD.

If Ken Nordtvedt is right, and the common ancestor of R-M269 lived just 4,000 - 5,000 years ago, then it isn't likely R-M269 was in Europe prior to Indo-European.

The connection between R-M269 and centum Indo-European is just too close to be coincidence, in my opinion, and even includes centum Tocharian, which was spoken in NW China.

There is also a corresponding close connection between R1a1 and satem Indo-European.

It doesn't seem likely to me that IE just "diffused" into Western Europe.