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origin of the Germanic tribes

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
    According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop"

    . . .

    R1a1* & U5b2
    Sorry. Don't buy it.

    If language change worked that way, why didn't the Anglo-Saxons in England learn Norman French to be "in the loop"?

    Proto-Germanic began in the Jastorf and Harpstedt cultures of NW Germany and the Netherlands, which, according to Mallory, is the consensus among Germanicists.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Yeah, it makes sense

    The people living in the North German/Plolish Plain prior to their adopting IE languages stayed pretty much where they were, allowing for back & forth pushing and shoving. Indo-European languages are a rather recent development, as far as human DNA goes. Apparently there was no large scale invasion by a pre-Germanic horde into the northern plains.


    R1a1* & U5b2
    Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 15 July 2008, 11:34 PM.

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  • Johnserrat
    replied
    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
    According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop."

    On the other hand, there was a large volkswanderung of the pre-Italo-Celtic population into Hungary, those Proto-IE being pastoralists with large herds of various livestock, including valuable horses.

    R1a1* & U5b2
    Now does that make any sense?

    John

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    apparent pre-Germanic roots

    According to Anthony, if I got it somewhat right, the ultra roots of pre-Germanic evolved in the Usatovo Culture, a subset of the widespread Yamnaya Culture, in the Odessa area of the Ukraine (around 3300 BC). It spread all the way up the Dniester River and on into Poland, etc. But there was little genetic transfer with this spread. It spread from population to population as a prestige language within the socio-political structure of a client-patron system. Local populations were recruited and they then adopted the IE language in order to be "in the loop."

    On the other hand, there was a large volkswanderung of the pre-Italo-Celtic population into Hungary, those Proto-IE being pastoralists with large herds of various livestock, including valuable horses.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    a little more into it (IE)

    I haven't read thru the whole book yet, but there are some interesting tidbits. The dialect of archaic IE that evolved into Proto-Indo-European seems to have been located in the lower Volga region. That's where the invention of the feminine gender has been traced to. After that, there was rapid spreading along the northern steppes.

    Pre-Germanic is implied by one branch that spread into the region of the Corded-ware People on the north side of the Carpathians, the language probably taken up by the indigenous people as a prestige language. Pre-Italo/Celtic moved into the region south of the Carpathians, and eventually up the Danube.

    The eastern Proto-IE borrowed words from Caucasian language(s) from trade, the wheeled vehicle coming from Mesopotamia via the Caucasus.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Naturally, each author thinks his own idea is best. Anthony is no exception.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    sure is controversial

    The author, Anthony, refers to Renfrew quite a few times, as he does to Russian investigators. But I got the impression that he thinks Renfrew is dated or not leading edge. He mentioned Armenia as a side event.

    The Pre-Anatolians, the first to actually invade the Balkans, on their way to Anatolia, around 4200 BC, seem to have extensively married indigenous females. Maybe it was a case of male IEs invading without their own women?. This is based on skull types in graves.

    The Atlantic Warm Period or Hypsithermal(spelling?) was from around 6000 to 4000 BC. After that, a severe cold period of a few hundred years kicked in (4200 - 3800 BC), when alpine glaciers advanced. This may have caused the eruption of the first Indo-Europeanns out of their Pontic Steppes homeland. It also corresponds to the first evidence of horseback riding by the Indo-Europeans.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • Stevo
    replied
    The I in Ukraine is mostly I2. It is practically absent in many centum IE populations and in many satem IE populations, as well. The same goes for I in general. It seems likely that I was already in Europe before PIE got there.

    Exactly where the PIE Urheimat was is highly controversial. Anthony endorses the Pontic-Caspian Urheimat idea of Gimbutas (and others before her) and Mallory.

    The Russian linguists Ivanov and Gamkrelidze place the PIE Urheimat in the Armenian highlands.

    Renfrew places it in Anatolia.

    There are other theories out there, as well.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    origins

    Since the Ukraine has become more or less accepted as the Proto-Indo-European homeland along with the adjacent steppe belt to the east, and after reading well into that Horse, Wheel, Language book (skimming lightly over the deep archaeological details), there may be room for more than one haplotype connected with Proto-Ind- European.

    The book has the authors best guess in the form of his chart (after showing a couple of earlier charts by others). The Germanic offshoot, about 3300 BC, is out of the western zone, presumably western Ukraine. Italo-Celtic from a bit further east just inside the central zone, about 3000 BC. Balto-Slavic from a bit more to the east, but still in the central zone. Greek also from the central zone. Tocharian (3700 BC) & Indo-Iranian (2200 BC) are from the eastern zone. The Anatolian broke out first at 4200 BC from the western zone.

    Prior to the change from hunting-fishing-foraging, the inhabitants of the Ukraine, etc. grassland steppes lived along the river valleys, and were separated from other populations by inhospitable steppes (for people on foot). So different haplotypes could have inhabited different river valleys, maybe left over from their LGM refugia. I notice Y-hg "I" is very strongly represented in the Ukraine (pie chart), as is R1a.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by Haganus
    But some archaelogists and anthropologists believe that the
    Danes, Swedes and Norwegian are direct descendants of the ancient
    Cro-Magnon men from south France. By graciliation the so-called
    Corded/Nordic race arose. According to them the high presence of
    R 1b is the prove that there are no immigrations on large scale to
    Scandinavia in the Neolithic time.

    The agriculture and the presence of Indo-European languages
    are only an acculturalization practically without immigration.
    I read on the bodyform diversity, a website of www. nordish.com
    Not possible.

    R1 (M173), according to Karafet et al (2008), is only 18,500 years old. R1b (M343) would be even younger still. R1b1b2 (M269) is only roughly 10,000 years old.

    In other words, there is nothing R1 old enough to have been Cro-Magnon or to have been in Europe during the Paleolithic Period.
    Last edited by Stevo; 10 July 2008, 06:22 PM.

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  • Haganus
    replied
    Dna

    But some archaelogists and anthropologists believe that the
    Danes, Swedes and Norwegian are direct descendants of the ancient
    Cro-Magnon men from south France. By graciliation the so-called
    Corded/Nordic race arose. According to them the high presence of
    R 1b is the prove that there are no immigrations on large scale to
    Scandinavia in the Neolithic time.

    The agriculture and the presence of Indo-European languages
    are only an acculturalization practically without immigration.
    I read on the bodyform diversity, a website of www. nordish.com

    Leave a comment:


  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    RE Satem/Centum

    A brief glance at a section of a chapter in the Horse,Wheel,Language book somewhat clarifies the Satem/Centum linguistic feature of Indo-European. It pertains to sound shifting.

    Satem languages include Indo-Iranian, Slavic, Baltic, Armenian, Albanian, and possibly Phrygian of SE Europe. Most other Indo-European languages retain the ancestral Centum. I assume that included the Anatolian branch (Hittite), which some linguist say should be dropped from Indo-European due its antiquity (i.e. branched off from Pre-Indo-European, and not from Proto-Indo-European).

    Within the Satem group is a subgroup that shows the "Ruki Rule" (another sound shift). These are Slavic, Baltic and Indo-Iranian.

    Greek, although related to other SE Europe languages such as Albanian, Illyrian, Phrygian, etc. did not pick up Satem, so it shows that Greek split off before Satem kicked in.

    Whew! I'm confusing myself.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    I'll leave it to the scholars

    I'm just an interested observer. My R1a1 roots are probably from the "satem" branch originally. Somehow my paternal ancestors found their way to Norway.

    I personally don't care whether the R1b clade introduced "centum" IE languages to western Europe or not. What Y-haplogroups were dominant in western Europe before R1b arrived, I wonder.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Thanks for the compliment on my map, PD.

    If Ken Nordtvedt is right, and the common ancestor of R-M269 lived just 4,000 - 5,000 years ago, then it isn't likely R-M269 was in Europe prior to Indo-European.

    The connection between R-M269 and centum Indo-European is just too close to be coincidence, in my opinion, and even includes centum Tocharian, which was spoken in NW China.

    There is also a corresponding close connection between R1a1 and satem Indo-European.

    It doesn't seem likely to me that IE just "diffused" into Western Europe.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    nice map!

    I don't know how to shade in a quote from a previous message.

    The map presentation by Stevo, a couple of messages back, is very helpful in providing a quick impression for anyone interested in this thread.

    I was not tested for M17; instead for M198, which I am positive for (R1a1).

    The first five chapters in "The Horse, The Wheel, and Language" covers the seemingly latest theory about the Ind0-European Homeland (Ukraine & southern Russia), and the various branchings from Proto-Indo-European. It agrees with Stevo. Of course the book does not go into DNA.

    If R1b was already in place before the spread of IE languages to western Europe, then IE diffused into the dominant R1b after they moved westward or evolved in situ, I would think. R1b may have been the carriers of agriculture, which explains its dominance. IE spread after agriculture was well established in most areas.

    R1a1* & U5b2

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