origin of the Germanic tribes

[derinos]

Two great BlackSea floods.

I've seen two different theories on how the Black Sea flooded - via the break at the Bosporus. One that maybe a sunami, or just a rise in post-LGM sea level caused a break in the narrow isthmus. Another that the Caspian sea overflowed into the Black Sea, causing it to rise until it broke through that same narrow strip of land. But the bottom line is the same, I guess.

R1a1* & U5b2

Sorry missed responding to this while overseas.

The land we call the Black Sea Basin suffered two major population-eliding floodings, according to recent archaeology and geologic studies.

Ca 13000 ybp there was sudden release of a great Volga-basin pent-up ice-melt lake from upstream. (A recent Russian paper;
Earlier, there was a similar, even larger destructive melt-flood, in what is now the US Mississippee Basin).

Then, ca 7000 ybp there was the now better-known Bosphorus breakdown, releasing the Mediterranean into the Basin, cognate with "Noah's Flood". (Numerous recent and ongoing studies.)

For our DNA ethnologic interest, we have two flood events with likely population disturbance. Occurring 6000 years apart, there would be postulated repopulation in between, by people to whom the tradition of danger was as remote as we now view the perils of Noah.

[spruithean]

This is a very interesting thread.

I am hoping there will be more discussion of this topic!

I'll try and add my two cents if I can later.

[Hetware]

Here's a map I created at Google Maps that gives a general picture of the spread of centum/R-M269 Indo-European and satem/R-M17 Indo-European:

http://tinyurl.com/6lsurz

Blue for centum/R-M269 and red for satem/R-M17. You can move the map around and use the device on the left to magnify or reduce it.

The centum languages are generally the more archaic and would have left the homeland first. The satem languages spread later.

There is a clear connection between R1 (M173) and the Indo-European languages in general and a clear connection between R-M269 and the centum IE languages and R-M17 and the satem IE languages.

Note the centum-speaking Tocharians heading off to the east, the exception among the centum speakers. Yet there is to this day a fairly high frequency of R-M269 among the Uyghurs of the Tarim Basin of NW China, where the Tocharians once lived.

It may be that the R1b centum speakers broke off from an earlier R1a/R1b centum-speaking population. I note that R1a and R1b are both present in remains from Germany dating to the early third millennium BCE.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

I believe there may be a case where they are both present at the same site and time, but don't cite me on that, just yet.

The R1b strains that dominate Western Europe are the result of founder effects. What is stunning about that is that the bifurcation between R1b1a2a1a1-U106/S21/M405 and R1b1a2a1a2cS461/Z290 * L459 * S145/M529/L21 are present in the samples from South-east Bashkirs listed in SI4 of:

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

The depiction of these is almost imperceptible on the maps:



I caution that this may represent a back migration, but there are some factors that argue against it.

[sammy66]

Why do you think the timing is off, if the horse was domesticated as late as 4,000 BC? Have they found skeletal remains older than 6000 years belonging to hg R in Europe?

[1798]

Why do you think the timing is off, if the horse was domesticated as late as 4,000 BC? Have they found skeletal remains older than 6000 years belonging to hg R in Europe?

What has the horse got to do with R1b? Could men in other haplogroups not ride horses or were they afraid of them? LOL

[Stevo]

What has the horse got to do with R1b? Could men in other haplogroups not ride horses or were they afraid of them? LOL

You might want to try cracking open a book or two, like David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, and Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys, and find out.

[1798]

You might want to try cracking open a book or two, like David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language, and Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys, and find out.

I don't read rubbish.

[MMaddi]

I don't read rubbish.

From 1798's official dictionary:

rubbish (n) - Anything that casts doubt on my already set-in-stone beliefs

[1798]

From 1798's official dictionary:

rubbish (n) - Anything that casts doubt on my already set-in-stone beliefs

Why has the U106 group not added the new Big-Y SNPs to their tree yet? Not capable or perhaps it might just make the U106 subgroup look really ancient, is that it?
Nothing is set in stone about the origins of any dna haplogroup.

[MMaddi]

Why has the U106 group not added the new Big-Y SNPs to their tree yet? Not capable or perhaps it might just make the U106 subgroup look really ancient, is that it?
Nothing is set in stone about the origins of any dna haplogroup.

Since you decided to leave the R1b-U106 Project long ago, I didn't think you have any interest in what the project does. I know that you lurk in our associated Yahoogroup to pick up any sort of statement that you believe supports your beliefs. Other than that, you seem to have no interest in promoting testing of the different subclades represented in the project (even your own subclade) to further our knowledge.

[Stevo]

I don't read rubbish.

It is readily apparent that there is a lot you regard as rubbish, because your arguments seldom make it appear that you know what you are talking about.

[1798]

Since you decided to leave the R1b-U106 Project long ago, I didn't think you have any interest in what the project does. I know that you lurk in our associated Yahoogroup to pick up any sort of statement that you believe supports your beliefs. Other than that, you seem to have no interest in promoting testing of the different subclades represented in the project (even your own subclade) to further our knowledge.

I left the project because I wasn't learning anything.
I thought that U106 Yahoogroup was a public forum where men can discuss the U106 haplogroup and one has to lurk there to find out exactly what? I spend a few seconds every day deleting the BS posts that are written there a lot of the time.
I have YDNA tested as far as I can and I willing to go further as soon as the group wakens up and smells the coffee.

[Bartot]

Germanic origin is north Germany and Denmark

Central germany was celtic and R-152 origin ......slowly moving south into Italy

old EastGermany and czech area was R-106 origin

roman records state no germans where in southern germany while the empire existed, so south germany has only been german less than 2000 years

[1798]

[QUOTE=Bartot;389076



roman records state no germans where in southern germany while the empire existed, so south germany has only been german less than 2000 years[/QUOTE]

That is funny. There were no Germans living in southern Germany 2000 years ago.

[ironroad41]

its worse than you think!

That is funny. There were no Germans living in southern Germany 2000 years ago.

There was no Germany, Scotland, Ireland or many of the current named Western European Countries 2000 years ago!!