Can we possibly be related?

[HapJ1]

Please help me to reason this out:

We have a surname in common. Our recent ancestors are from the same town in Italy. I always assumed that we were distant cousins and it was just a question of finding our common ancestor. And then he was tested by FTDNA.

He's R1b1.

I'm J1.

Can we possibly be related or are we of two families who merely share a surname?

Thanks in advance,

Alan

[Jim Honeychuck]

Alan,

In what way did surnames originate in that culture? Patronyms, clan names, personal attributes, etc.?

Jim

[HapJ1]

Can we possibly be related?

According to the standard text on the subject, Joseph G. Fucilla's "Our Italian Surnames", the answer to your question is: all three.

[Jim Honeychuck]

Then it would seem that you are not related within 30,000+ years on the paternal line, unless by adoption.

But adoption is good.

Regards,
Jim

[HapJ1]

Adoption. I was thinking that too, Jim. Now, if I could only figure who adopted whom.

It's also possible that when, after the Council of Trent (1545-1563), surnames were mandated by the Church, my ancestors and his coincidentally chose Tullio, a popular name in the district because of its association with Cicero. I suspect his ancestors and mine were living in different towns then and in the 18th Century came together in Vallecorsa where, no doubt, they took themselves to be distant cousins. Vallecorsa and its neighboring towns and villages have many Tullios. I see now that they're not all related.

[Jim Honeychuck]

BTW, have you checked the new Y-DNA data from Lebanon? I don't know how that might relate to you, but there's J1 in there.

Regards,
Jim

[HapJ1]

I'm eager to check it out, Jim. How can I find it? Is it an FTDNA Lebanon Project?

[Jim Honeychuck]

I'm eager to check it out, Jim. How can I find it? Is it an FTDNA Lebanon Project?

No, I mean this thing: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...aders-dna.html

I can't find the link to the paper. Just e-mail me at [email protected] and I'll send you a copy.

Jim

[cacio]

The full text of the paper should be at:

http://ajhg.org/images/latestarticles/zalloua.pdf

The supplemental data should be available at

http://download.ajhg.org/mmcs/journa...02061.mmc1.pdf

Though the number of STR is short and won't be enough to establish any recent connection. A lot of the J1 in Italy could have arrived during the neolithic, together with J2, so it'll be hard to say much about any relation with Lebanese or Arabic J1. (Also, on another forum, there were some discussions on the classification of J haplotypes in the paper, though I think that was more about the J2's)

cacio

[Jim Honeychuck]

Thanks, Cacio.

For Alan's purposes, J*(xJ2) probably equates to J1.

Jim

[josh w.]

Cacio, thanks for the link to the supplemental data. Including the project sample I now have three 11/12 and one 12/12 J2 match with Lebanese individuals. As expected, all of my matches were with Lebanese Christians who would be less influenced by Muslim Arabic expansion. Excluding possible conversions in Europe, I have more matches with Lebanese than with any other non-Jewish group. Hence my point about studying the Levant as a whole. It also points to the need for FTDNA to have more representative samples.

[HapJ1]

Thank you all. I have read through the study and I appreciate being directed to it. I'm curious about DYS 389b, as I am not familiar with this marker. Judging by the values, it is not 389-2. I assume that FTDNA does not test for this marker. Is that right?

[josh w.]

I think it is just 389-2 minus 389-1.

[HapJ1]

DYS 389b

Bingo! Thanks, Josh. That's the answer I was looking for.