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Can someone help me understand my DYS values please?

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  • Can someone help me understand my DYS values please?

    Hi all,
    I got my results back from the National Geographic project. They classified my as a J1..something I was not really surprised about but I want to know what to make of the DYS values and the repeat pattern. I want to do the sub-clade test and maybe the 67 marker test but before I do that I want to figure out what this all means. I have gone over the tutorials and FAQs but I am still stumped. What do the DYS values correspond to?...like DYS390 for instance..mine is 22...somebody else might have 10..what does that mean?..are the individual DYS values related to specific physical traits?..like 390 for hair color, 426 for eye color or something along those lines? Any info would be greatly appreciated. I posted by details below, also my ysearch ID is MBS6S. Thanks!

    DYS#-393-390-19/394-391-385a-385b-426-388-439-389.1-392-389.2
    Value 12 22 14 11 12 18 11 17 11 14 11 29

  • #2
    Originally posted by yezmar
    Hi all,
    I got my results back from the National Geographic project. They classified my as a J1..something I was not really surprised about but I want to know what to make of the DYS values and the repeat pattern. I want to do the sub-clade test and maybe the 67 marker test but before I do that I want to figure out what this all means. I have gone over the tutorials and FAQs but I am still stumped. What do the DYS values correspond to?...like DYS390 for instance..mine is 22...somebody else might have 10..what does that mean?..are the individual DYS values related to specific physical traits?..like 390 for hair color, 426 for eye color or something along those lines? Any info would be greatly appreciated. I posted by details below, also my ysearch ID is MBS6S. Thanks!

    DYS#-393-390-19/394-391-385a-385b-426-388-439-389.1-392-389.2
    Value 12 22 14 11 12 18 11 17 11 14 11 29
    Hi Yezmar,

    I suggest you join FTDNA's J Project; go to the following website and click on "request to join this group"

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/

    The administrators are very helpful and you'll be able to compare your results with a lot of other J1s. As you're able to, I also suggest that you upgrade to at least 37 markers, if not 67. The project administrators can tell you if it's worth it for you to have the deep snp done, what you called subclade.

    No, your marker values won't tell you anything about your physical traits, just how you may be related to others now and your ancient origins. When searching for other people who match you, you should generally limit the search to other J1s. I say "generally" because sometimes people could be of the same haplogroup as you, but their ysearch entry says just "J" or "unknown", but they might be J1. In ysearch, you have 3 other people listed as J1, and one unknown. Of those 4 people, 3 are of Arabic ethnicity and one has an American name that I would guess as British ancestry. This is possible due to the ancient movements of people; there are people throughout Europe who seem to have ancient Semitic roots. Hope this helps.

    Vinnie
    Last edited by vinnie; 6 December 2007, 08:50 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by yezmar
      DYS#-393-390-19/394-391-385a-385b-426-388-439-389.1-392-389.2
      Value 12 22 14 11 12 18 11 17 11 14 11 29
      Here are your Ysearch neighbors:

      http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...smatches_max=4

      As you can see, no one is closer than a genetic distance of 4 from you. Nevertheless, this may be all the more reason to upgrade to 37 or even 67 markers--so that experts can better understand exactly where you fit into the whole J1 picture.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by vinnie
        Hi Yezmar,

        I suggest you join FTDNA's J Project; go to the following website and click on "request to join this group"

        http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/

        The administrators are very helpful and you'll be able to compare your results with a lot of other J1s. As you're able to, I also suggest that you upgrade to at least 37 markers, if not 67. The project administrators can tell you if it's worth it for you to have the deep snp done, what you called subclade.

        No, your marker values won't tell you anything about your physical traits, just how you may be related to others now and your ancient origins. When searching for other people who match you, you should generally limit the search to other J1s. I say "generally" because sometimes people could be of the same haplogroup as you, but their ysearch entry says just "J" or "unknown", but they might be J1. In ysearch, you have 3 other people listed as J1, and one unknown. Of those 4 people, 3 are of Arabic ethnicity and one has an American name that I would guess as British ancestry. This is possible due to the ancient movements of people; there are people throughout Europe who seem to have ancient Semitic roots. Hope this helps.

        Vinnie
        Hey Vinnie,

        Thanks for the response..I joined the forum and we'll see where that goes. I did get a message from FTDNA that I do qualify for a discount on a Deep SNP so I was going to do that...which do you think would shed more light?..the 67 marker or the Deep SNP?..do you not get the Deep SNP results with the 67 marker?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by lgmayka
          Here are your Ysearch neighbors:

          http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...smatches_max=4

          As you can see, no one is closer than a genetic distance of 4 from you. Nevertheless, this may be all the more reason to upgrade to 37 or even 67 markers--so that experts can better understand exactly where you fit into the whole J1 picture.
          Thanks for the response. So when you say genetic distance of 4 are you referring to this?...

          "Genetic distance 4,= Not Related
          8/12 - You are not related and the odds greatly favor that you have not shared a common male ancestor with this person within thousands of years."

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by yezmar
            Hey Vinnie,

            Thanks for the response..I joined the forum and we'll see where that goes. I did get a message from FTDNA that I do qualify for a discount on a Deep SNP so I was going to do that...which do you think would shed more light?..the 67 marker or the Deep SNP?..do you not get the Deep SNP results with the 67 marker?
            Hi Yezmar,

            Bonnie from the J group is better qualified than I am to tell you if it's worth the money for the deep snp. But I can tell you that the deep snp and the 67 marker tests are completely different. Since you already know that you're J1 (I'm assuming that you know you are M304+ and M267+ from uploading your results from the National Geographic), the deep snp will test for the other snps known to differentiate between different subgroups of J1s. My deep snp confirmed that I'm positive only for those two snps, and nothing else known at this time. The 67 markers will tell you how close you are to others who've tested and will help Bonnie classify you into similar groups of J1s as you can see in the project y-dna results.

            Vinnie
            Last edited by vinnie; 7 December 2007, 10:00 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              M267+ 304+

              I see from reading this forum that many people here have the J1 M267 and M304 SNP's. I fall into this category also. I am not sure what it all means, and I am curious why so many people seem to be positive for these two SNP's.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Koplen
                I see from reading this forum that many people here have the J1 M267 and M304 SNP's. I fall into this category also. I am not sure what it all means, and I am curious why so many people seem to be positive for these two SNP's.
                Unlike some other haplogroups, J1 cannot be identified by STR's (the long string of numbers you get from a DNA testing company). A different genetic characteristic called an SNP is used to identify J1, and try to put some structure into the type: http://www.ethnoancestry.com/J.html

                Everywhere you look you see "J1 M267 is common among Arabs and Jews," but I have a collection of almost 50 more northerly cases which are neither Arab nor Jewish.

                Jim
                J1 M267 with DYS388=13

                Comment


                • #9
                  J1 in Europe is not common

                  Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                  Unlike some other haplogroups, J1 cannot be identified by STR's (the long string of numbers you get from a DNA testing company). A different genetic characteristic called an SNP is used to identify J1, and try to put some structure into the type: http://www.ethnoancestry.com/J.html

                  Everywhere you look you see "J1 M267 is common among Arabs and Jews," but I have a collection of almost 50 more northerly cases which are neither Arab nor Jewish.

                  Jim
                  J1 M267 with DYS388=13
                  I don't know how common J1 is among this forum's members but it is not common in Europe even in Mediterranean countries like Greece, Italy or Turkey. By common I mean 30% or more. It is really only common in the Middle East, NE Africa, North Africa and the Cis-Caucasus among certain ethnic groups. J1 is not common among Jews except those who belong to the Cohen group who are a small subset of Jews. I would say that J1 is rather rare in Europe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    STR values

                    Originally posted by yezmar
                    Hi all,
                    I got my results back from the National Geographic project. They classified my as a J1..something I was not really surprised about but I want to know what to make of the DYS values and the repeat pattern. I want to do the sub-clade test and maybe the 67 marker test but before I do that I want to figure out what this all means. I have gone over the tutorials and FAQs but I am still stumped. What do the DYS values correspond to?...like DYS390 for instance..mine is 22...somebody else might have 10..what does that mean?..are the individual DYS values related to specific physical traits?..like 390 for hair color, 426 for eye color or something along those lines? Any info would be greatly appreciated. I posted by details below, also my ysearch ID is MBS6S. Thanks!

                    DYS#-393-390-19/394-391-385a-385b-426-388-439-389.1-392-389.2
                    Value 12 22 14 11 12 18 11 17 11 14 11 29
                    There isn't much to understand about the DYS marker values except that certain haplogroups eg R1b, have a certain DYS marker pattern associated with it, which can be considered common or modal. Your pattern is indicative of haplogroup J. It could indicate J*, J1 or J2, you can't be 100% sure just on the pattern. Your DYS pattern does indicate a Middle Eastern Arab or North African Arab origin. The DYS388=17 and DYS391=11 are typical of Arab haplogroup J. It is believed that pattern was spread by the Arab movement during the 7th century. The DYS pattern is used mainly for proving close genetic relationships with supposedly related or presumed related male lines.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tassie
                      There isn't much to understand about the DYS marker values except that certain haplogroups eg R1b, have a certain DYS marker pattern associated with it, which can be considered common or modal. Your pattern is indicative of haplogroup J. It could indicate J*, J1 or J2, you can't be 100% sure just on the pattern. Your DYS pattern does indicate a Middle Eastern Arab or North African Arab origin. The DYS388=17 and DYS391=11 are typical of Arab haplogroup J. It is believed that pattern was spread by the Arab movement during the 7th century. The DYS pattern is used mainly for proving close genetic relationships with supposedly related or presumed related male lines.
                      If NG is still reporting results like it did when I got mine (about 2 years ago), he's either J* or J1 because even at that time they would report J2 as such from their deep SNPs; oddly, they told me I was simply "J". Within seconds of uploading the results to FTDNA, I knew I was J1 because NG had in fact tested me for those snps. So NG knew I was J1 but didn't tell me that upfront, and I had to pay FTDNA to test the deep snps again in order to rule out subclades of J1, which is something that NG may have already known but didn't report.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tassie
                        I don't know how common J1 is among this forum's members but it is not common in Europe even in Mediterranean countries like Greece, Italy or Turkey. By common I mean 30% or more. It is really only common in the Middle East, NE Africa, North Africa and the Cis-Caucasus among certain ethnic groups. J1 is not common among Jews except those who belong to the Cohen group who are a small subset of Jews. I would say that J1 is rather rare in Europe.
                        We really don't know how common J1 is in Europe because most of the data, to the best of my knowledge, is from people like me of European origin who have opted to have their DNA tested. In other words (again to the best of my knowledge) there have been no studies based on random sampling of European populations from which to draw inferences about J1's frequency. (If anyone knows of any studies based on random sampling that address this issue, please let me know.) Check out the J project y-results at http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/ to see a number of J1 European-origin haplotypes (genealogically speaking) with DYS 388 15/16 and 17+ from people with apparently non-Jewish or non-Arabic names. You'll also see a number of Jewish names associated with the haplotypes of people who apparently do not have a tradition of being Cohen. (Do I dare say that perhaps, based on genetic similiarity, that some of these people may actually be of Cohen origin, but for whatever reason they lost that status and/or knowledge of it?)

                        Likewise, we must recognize that haplotypes associated with Arabic and Jewish names simply represent individuals whose families have maintained these identities. (I'm not getting into the "who's Jewish" discussion here.) But since this can of worm's been opened, I find it curious for some to constantly invoke the neolithic to explain the majority of European J1 with DYS 388 15/16 when the migratory history of the Jewish people throughout Europe for the last 2000+ years is so well known. How else can one explain 2000K tmrca's (and sometimes closer) with living people of known Jewish ancestry? Descendants of ancient Jews who did not maintain that religious identity nevertheless share a genetic link with them, whether or not they're recognized as Jewish vis-a-vis current religious prescriptions.
                        Last edited by vinnie; 11 April 2008, 09:03 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          J1 in Europe

                          I am J1 but I have to say that it is probably the least studied Y haplogroup in Europe. G is a minority haplogroup but gets lots of attention My guess is that J1 is associated with Arabs and Jews and consequently thought of as Semitic or in other words not European and alien. That is not the case with R1b or R1a or the J's cousin haplogroup I where ever minute and frankly pointless sub sub clades are being discovered. Probably trying to distance the "Celts" from the Iberians. Most genetic studies don't even bother to test for M267 rather choosing to test for J2 and J even when testing Mediterranean European populations. So the figures for J1 are usually in the J*(xJ2) field which is, to me, rather annoying. There is a lot of misinformation about J1, example, its age, so it fits in the accepted Semitic paradigm of either the Phoenicians, Etruscans, Jewish immigration to Europe or Arab Muslim conquests of 7 century CE. J1 is much older than 15 000 years often quoted.

                          According to the study of pan Mediterranean men, J*(xJ2) is between a half or less of the frequency of J2 in Europeans. For example, Sardinian Italians are 9.9% J2, 4.9% J*(xJ2), Cypriots 36.9% to 6.2%, South Italians 16.2% to 4.4% and Maltese 21.1% to 7.8%. That is from C. Capelli et al. Since J* is the least of the J haplgroups it is likely that the J*(xJ2) is mostly J1 but of course we cannot be sure.

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