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R1b1c - advanced test question

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  • #46
    Tomcat,

    The vast majority of Ashkenazi Jews have had surnames for only about 200 years or so. If you look at FTDNA's TMRCA chart at http://www.familytreedna.com/faq2.html, you'll see that a 66/67 match has a 90% probability of sharing a common ancestor within 8 generations (also about 200 years, if you assume 25 years per generations) and a 95% probability of sharing a common ancestor within 9 generations (about 225 years).

    Keeping in mind that these are probabilities and that 90% and 95% do not equal 100% (in other words, the remaining 5% or 10% is not negligible), we can expect that while many matches at this level will share a common ancestor within the above timeframes, there are certainly others who will share a common ancestor who lived further back -- and in the case of Ashkenazi Jews, that means before the adoption of surnames.

    This situation is extremely common for Ashkenazi Jews. The FTDNA database has many large clusters of Ashkenazi men who match very closely at 67 markers, but have different surnames.

    So, what's next?

    1) Well, you ARE related to this match, probably in the past 200-250 years. What you do with this information is up to you. I would certainly recommend contacting your match. Confirm that the listed surname for your match is indeed his paternal line surname, just in case a relative sponsored the test and put his or her own name on the account instead of the tester's name (yes, people do that, unfortunately). By communicating with your match, you'll also be able to find out exactly where his ancestors were from (assuming he knows) and also if there are any known surname changes in his line (that's another issue that often has to be dealt with in Jewish genealogy).

    From there, the two of you can decide whether you wish to pursue searching for a paper trail connection between your families. If you've done any genealogy research on your paternal line, I'm sure you're already aware that getting records from Eastern Europe can be difficult, expensive, time consuming and frustrating -- but well worth the effort when you do find records. That said, even if you trace your family back to the adoption of your surname, researching beyond that into records without surnames can be much more challenging. So this is no easy task.

    As you probably already know, JewishGen is an excellent place to start your Jewish genealogy research. http://www.jewishgen.org

    2) If you want to find matches who have the same surname as you, and are therefore presumably related within the past 200 years, then your best bet is to participate in the Goldstein surname project *and* help recruit other Goldstein men to participate.
    http://www.ftdna.com/jg.asp?group=Goldstein

    3) Join the Jewish R1b project, if you're not already a member. This project is identifying and studying the many different clusters of Jewish R1b men, trying to learn more about their ancient origins, and how/when R1b entered the Jewish population. http://www.ftdna.com/public/JewishR1b

    Elise
    Last edited by efgen; 3 November 2007, 08:05 PM.

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    • #47
      Thank you Elise!

      You are so well-informed. I wonder why all your provisos are not part of FTDNA's presentation on the potentials of Jewish ancestry DNA testing?

      If I understand you correctly, after 67 markers and a sub-clade test, I am back to expensive and probably futile genealogy or I move-on to pyramid marketing.

      As to your suggestions:
      1) Member.
      2) Forum member, nothing happening!
      3) Project member, nothing happening!

      So much for the power of pyramid marketing ...

      But the best of luck with the rest of the ducks.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by tomcat
        We have a 66/67 match with another that does not share our surname. I have been SNP'd to R1b1c but he has no haplogroup assignment. We differ by one allele at CDYb.

        What gives with that and That and THAT?
        And does this mean that the 67-marker Y is not 'the last word' on Y?
        And if so, what is next?
        There are more markers to test to see how well you and your match hold up. If you log on to your personal page and click on [Order Tests & Upgrades] and then click on [Advanced Orders] you will see other panels of markers listed, but some are duplicates. If you click on one that FTDNA has already tested, it will let you know. Many of these advanced markers can be entered in to Ysearch except for the DYF markers and the g and t types of the DYS 464X, but all of that can be entered in DNA-FP's Ymatch database. The advanced DYS markers will bring your Ysearch ht up to 86 markers; the other 10 DYS are available only at another company at the moment but I think that FTDNA will be offering them in the next year. Here is a list of the additional advanced markers and the panels that they are under:

        Y-STR DNA-FP Panel 2
        DYS 463
        DYS 643

        Y-STR DNA-FP Panel 3
        DYS 461
        DYS 462
        DYS 635
        DYS 726

        Y-STR DNA-FP Panel 4
        DXYS 156
        DYS 435
        DYS 452
        DYS 485
        DYS 716
        Y GGAAT-1B07
        DYS 445
        DYS 495
        DYS 717
        DYS 434
        DYS 441
        DYS 714
        Y-GATA-A10

        Y-STR DNA-FP Panel 5 Palindromic Pack
        *NOTE: it is cheaper to get all of the markers in this panel (including the duplicates) than it is to buy the ones you need separately*
        DYF 371X
        DYF 399X
        DYF 411
        DYF 385
        DYF 401
        DYF 725
        DYF 397
        DYF 408
        DYS 464X

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Vinny
          "But my R1b1c was merely confirmed with no numerical suffix conferred. "

          I just got my results back today, and have the same. Does this happen to most with R1b1c?

          That was also my case today.

          Comment


          • #50
            Juan Carlos et alia,

            Yes, there are many R1b1c's hoping for further definition. The newest option is a test of a SNP labeled S116 from Ethnoancestry that offers some possibility of splitting R1b1c. The SNP is also offered by FTDNA (for less $) and here's a link to FTDNA's announcement -
            http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/rea...8-03/1206567817

            (Odd FTDNA doesn't anounce to their own forum).

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by tomcat
              Juan Carlos et alia,

              Yes, there are many R1b1c's hoping for further definition. The newest option is a test of a SNP labeled S116 from Ethnoancestry that offers some possibility of splitting R1b1c. The SNP is also offered by FTDNA (for less $) and here's a link to FTDNA's announcement -
              http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/rea...8-03/1206567817

              (Odd FTDNA doesn't anounce to their own forum).
              Thank you, Tom. I hope they will find out for sure if I take the test. Right now, as things stand, I paid money just to know what I already knew: that I was R1b1c. I tested negative for all.

              Comment


              • #52
                I've ordered FTDNA's rs34276300 test.

                It's the number one topic of conversation over at dna-forums.org (which is down for awhile because its web hosting service is relocating - should be up by early Sunday morning).

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by juan carlos
                  Thank you, Tom. I hope they will find out for sure if I take the test. Right now, as things stand, I paid money just to know what I already knew: that I was R1b1c. I tested negative for all.
                  Being confirmed R1b1c through Deep SNP and U Series tests is an important outcome. And useful information in working-out the branches, limbs and twigs of the immense R1b tree.

                  Comment

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