R1b1c - advanced test question

[tomcat]

Have R1b1c predicted on 67-markers. What are the most useful advanced test options from FTDNA or others - what will results tell me?

[jr9162]

Have R1b1c predicted on 67-markers. What are the most useful advanced test options from FTDNA or others - what will results tell me?

FTDNA's DeepSNP-R1b(DSNP-R1b) test will give you clarification of whether you're R1b1c1 through R1b1c8. Ethnoancestry's tests will cover R1b1c9 through R1b1c10...

You run a chance of being classified as R1b1c* - which just means they haven't yet developed/discovered SNP testing to determine what subclade you belong to below R1b1c. Very few will be only R1b1c - with nothing downstream...

Unless you have the SNP testing done, your R1b1c results are just a prediction... You'll have to determine whether you have the need to know.

There's quite a few studies going on regarding the different subclades of R1b1, particularly R1b1c, because the haplogroup represents much of western Europe and 90+ of Ireland.

[Rick]

Tomcat,
JR9162 is correct that without the SNP test the R1b1c designation is just a prediction. However, looking at your haplotype on ysearch I'd think that is a fairly safe prediction. In fact it looks like you may be a member of the R1b1c Ht 15 variety. This is from an older marker system called p49a,f TAQ-I. I don't fully understand how this system works or whether this is exactly equvalent to a SNP-level designator, but this system splits R1b1c into two broad groups, Ht-15 and Ht-35. Ht-15 occurs primarily in SE Europe, with high levels in the Balkans, Turkey, Ukraine, and environs. Western European R1b1c (and thus the vast majority of R1b1c in the FTDNA database) is Ht-35.

There are two factors that point to your likely Ht-15 status. You have dys393=12, which is rare in R1b1c at about 4%, but is the strong modal value within Ht-15. You also have a Jewish surname. Ht-15 appears to be fairly common among Jewish R1b1c.

Unfortunately there is no commercially available test for p49. However, in addition to dys 393, dys 461 is a strong marker for distinguishing Ht-15 from Ht-35. Dys 461 is available among the new FTDNA-DNA Fingerprint "advanced" markers. You may want to give this marker a try to see if Ht-15 is still indicated. Hopefully a the p49 test will be offered someday, or equivalent SNPs for Ht-15 and Ht-35 will be found.

Cheers, Rick

[vineviz]

There are two factors that point to your likely Ht-15 status. You have dys393=12, which is rare in R1b1c at about 4%, but is the strong modal value within Ht-15. You also have a Jewish surname. Ht-15 appears to be fairly common among Jewish R1b1c.

I would only add that the majority of people with DYS393=12 are probably NOT ht-15. ht-15 has almost never been directly observed in Western Europe.

Unfortunately, until more known ht-15 haplotypes have had robust STR testing it will be hard to say for sure.

[Rick]

I would only add that the majority of people with DYS393=12 are probably NOT ht-15. ht-15 has almost never been directly observed in Western Europe.

Unfortunately, until more known ht-15 haplotypes have had robust STR testing it will be hard to say for sure.

I agree, if you're talking about the majority of people (R1b1c) in the public databases. But if you're talking about the majority of R1b1c overall, then I'm not so sure. Probably the areas of eastern Europe and Eurasia where Ht-15 (and presumably dys393=12) should predominate are the most underrepresented among available R1b1c samples. But, ultimately your point about this marker is valid, which is why the additional testing of dys 461 could be so useful (until a real test for Ht-15/35 comes along).

[vineviz]

I agree, if you're talking about the majority of people (R1b1c) in the public databases. But if you're talking about the majority of R1b1c overall, then I'm not so sure. Probably the areas of eastern Europe and Eurasia where Ht-15 (and presumably dys393=12) should predominate are the most underrepresented among available R1b1c samples. But, ultimately your point about this marker is valid, which is why the additional testing of dys 461 could be so useful (until a real test for Ht-15/35 comes along).

I agree. Also, anyone comparing their DYS461 to published studies that include A7.2 (like Sengupta and Cinnioglu) should be aware that these authors report a value that is two repeats shorter than FTDNA/DNA-FP.

[Rick]

For some reason the forum won't permit me to edit my previous 2 posts on this thread for correction, so I'll post notice here.

I mistakenly reversed Ht-15 and Ht-35 in my previous 2 posts on the topic.

Tomcat, what I should have said is that you are a good candidate for Ht-35, the eastern variety.

Sorry for the confusion.

[MMaddi]

For some reason the forum won't permit me to edit my previous 2 posts on this thread for correction, so I'll post notice here.

I mistakenly reversed Ht-15 and Ht-35 in my previous 2 posts on the topic.

Tomcat, what I should have said is that you are a good candidate for Ht-35, the eastern variety.

Sorry for the confusion.

I think there's a 15 minute time limit for editing posts.

Mike

[tomcat]

...I mistakenly reversed Ht-15 and Ht-35 in my previous 2 posts on the topic ... what I should have said is that you are a good candidate for Ht-35, the eastern variety....

So, in review, Ht35, the putative eastern variant of R1b1c, as defined by p49a,f TAQ-I, is also indicated by dys 393 and dys 461.

A value of 12 at dys 393 is modal for Jewish R1b1c and may or may not be indicative of Ht35?

What is the value at dys 461 that is indicative of Ht35?

Are any of the subclades as defined by FTDNA's DeepSNP-R1b (1 to 8) or EA's (9 to 10) indicative of eastern R1b1c?

My thanks to all for all replies.

[Rick]

[QUOTE=tomcat]So, in review, Ht35, the putative eastern variant of R1b1c, as defined by p49a,f TAQ-I, is also indicated by dys 393 and dys 461.

A value of 12 at dys 393 is modal for Jewish R1b1c and may or may not be indicative of Ht35?

QUOTE]

What is the value at dys 461 that is indicative of Ht35?

Correct. According to frequency statistics posted by Leo Little, dys 393=12 comprises 4% of R1b1c cases in publicly available databases. In the Jewish R1b project, 58 of 104 participants have dys 393=12. However, due to the sheer dominance of the databases by western European, especially British Isles R1b1c, in terms of absolute numbers, probably most dys 393=12 cases are from Ht-15 (western type) R1b1c.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....g/YCC_R1b.html
This marker is one of the worst I know for different labs using different standards. I think all are in line now, so that the values used by Garvey in the link above are the current standards. So, 11 would be the Ht-35 modal and 12 the Ht-15 modal. I've tried to confirm this of late, but cannot find an authoratative source. In any case the Ht-35 mode is one repeat lower than the Ht-15 mode.

Are any of the subclades as defined by FTDNA's DeepSNP-R1b (1 to 8) or EA's (9 to 10) indicative of eastern R1b1c?

I don't think enough eastern or Ht-35 types have been tested to know, but my guess is they won't be. In any event, none have yet been shown to be indicative of eastern origin. I saw some speculation on the rootsweb list that perhaps S21+ was derived from a Ht-35 population, but I don't know what the basis of that was. It seems like a stretch.

[vineviz]

I don't think enough eastern or Ht-35 types have been tested to know, but my guess is they won't be. In any event, none have yet been shown to be indicative of eastern origin. I saw some speculation on the rootsweb list that perhaps S21+ was derived from a Ht-35 population, but I don't know what the basis of that was. It seems like a stretch.

About 70% of ht35 has DYS393=12, according to Cinnioglu et al. So far, no identified subclade of R1b1c shows any significant level of DYS393=12 and I think that says a lot.

Also, Semino et al. (2000) found no traces of ht35 in western Europe (Spain, France, Switzerland, etc). The most western population to show any ht35 that I'm aware of is Italy, and even there I think it is probably concentrated in the south.

[MMaddi]

I don't think enough eastern or Ht-35 types have been tested to know, but my guess is they won't be. In any event, none have yet been shown to be indicative of eastern origin. I saw some speculation on the rootsweb list that perhaps S21+ was derived from a Ht-35 population, but I don't know what the basis of that was. It seems like a stretch.

I think that Leo Little and Vince Vizachero have worked together to produce a map indicating possible distribution of S21+ throughout Europe using various databases of R1b haplotypes. If I remember correctly, the map showed an interesting picture of S21+ haplotypes in a crescent starting in the west from northern Netherlands/northern Germany, going east along the coast to Poland, then turning southward into Eastern Europe and the Balkans. However, this is based on a small number of haplotypes from Eastern Europe/Balkans origin.

One might say that that may indicate an Eastern European/Balkans origin for S21+, placing it geographically closer to Turkey than to Iberia. But I have to agree with Rick that it would be a stretch to think that S21+ is a form of ht35, based on the lack of DYS393=12 among S21+ individuals. So perhaps there are actually three types of R1b in Europe - WAMH (based in Iberia and natives of the British Isles), S21+ (based in northern continental Europe, with extension into England through Anglo-Saxon/Viking invaders and possible extension into Eastern Europe) and ht35 (based in Turkey, with extension into Italy and the Balkans). The first two, WAMH and S21+, would be ht15.

Of course, as more testing goes on, especially of non-western European populations, we'll probably know more.

[Stevo]

How does ht35 compare with ht15 in terms of sheer numbers?

We know ht35 is found in Anatolia and to some extent in the Balkans and Italy.

But what about Eastern Europe?

[Rick]

How does ht35 compare with ht15 in terms of sheer numbers?

We know ht35 is found in Anatolia and to some extent in the Balkans and Italy.

But what about Eastern Europe?

While searching the rootsweb archives on this topic yesterday I saw where someone made the assertion that Ht-35 comprises 1/4 of R1b1c (actually they stated a 3:1 ratio of 15 to 35 types). I don't recall if empirical evidence was cited for this assertion. It would be nice to see a revival of interest in this marker system. Apparently there were attempts to develop commercial tests a year or two ago, but these must have been unsuccessful, or were not ultimately pursued.

[vineviz]

While searching the rootsweb archives on this topic yesterday I saw where someone made the assertion that Ht-35 comprises 1/4 of R1b1c (actually they stated a 3:1 ratio of 15 to 35 types). I don't recall if empirical evidence was cited for this assertion.

A 1997 paper by Poloni et al. (a meta-analysis, really) found that ht15 represented 18.4% of the linguistic group they called "Indo-European" and that ht35 represented 5.1%. Maybe that's the source.

Northwestern Europe was not very well represented in that paper though (just 21 "English" and no Germans, Scandinavians, etc). whereas Eastern Europe and the Mediterranean were pretty well covered. The actual frequency, therefore, of ht35 among Indo-Europeans is probably lower than the paper suggests.