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CMH Question: I was but am I still?

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  • vinnie
    replied
    Thank you much. Now I realize I was going to the log-in page, not the homepage...

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  • efgen
    replied
    Originally posted by vinnie
    By the way, I found this forum through a Google search but I can't figure out how to access forums through FTDNA's homepage. Help!
    Left side of the homepage, last link on the list. It's also listed at the top of the FAQ page. Both locations are somewhat inconspicuous -- would be better if the forums were also listed on everyone's myFTDNA page! But you can access the forums directly using the URL http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/

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  • vinnie
    replied
    By the way, I found this forum through a Google search but I can't figure out how to access forums through FTDNA's homepage. Help!

    Thanks,

    Vinnie

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Francesco:

    not really - the data I saw almost always show R1b beat J in S and especially C Italy, with percentages around 30-40%. Only occasionally this may be reversed, eg in Sicily (may be) and in random cities. So that corresponds pretty well with the percentages one sees in the Italy project.

    cacio
    In the Sicily Project, it has been very evenly distributed between R1b and J2. They were essentially tied for a few months. Then for some reason in December and January we had several new R1b members, so R1b pulled ahead. Then in February, I think we had 3 new J2 members to make it a little closer.

    Currently, we have 30 R1b paternal lines (27.8%) and 27 J2 paternal lines (25%).

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  • vinnie
    replied
    Thanks for the tips, Josh. Still, it would be interesting to see a study done on the Roman Jews, given the relatively stable longevity of that community.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    P.P.S. There is a website, "Jewish Genealogy in Italy" which contains a brief history as well as other info. I didn't see anything on dna but that may be in development.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    I don't think that much is known about the ancient Italian Jews and possible haplotypes. Their history is rather complex. Many moved north, past the Alps into Germany, eventually to become Ashkenazi. A high percentage of Ashkenazi followed this path. I have seen maps where the migratory path went through the midline of Italy not far from Abruzzo.
    Other Jews remained in the Mediterranian region and became part of the Sephardic population. In the Sephardic population are also Jews who fled Iberia and settled in Italy. In addition some Ashkenazi have returned to Italy.
    Consequently, the present Italian Jewish population may not be that representative of the ancient Jews of Rome.

    P.S. At Jewish Genealogy (Jewish Gen) one can find general information on Italian Jews of recent vintage.
    Last edited by josh w.; 2 March 2007, 12:49 PM.

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Francesco:

    not really - the data I saw almost always show R1b beat J in S and especially C Italy, with percentages around 30-40%. Only occasionally this may be reversed, eg in Sicily (may be) and in random cities. So that corresponds pretty well with the percentages one sees in the Italy project.
    Then it's very interesting to see that, despite such "duopolistic" numbers for R1b and J, in Italy there's still room for an outstanding variety of haplogroups.
    Last edited by F.E.C.; 2 March 2007, 12:02 PM.

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  • cacio
    replied
    Francesco:

    not really - the data I saw almost always show R1b beat J in S and especially C Italy, with percentages around 30-40%. Only occasionally this may be reversed, eg in Sicily (may be) and in random cities. So that corresponds pretty well with the percentages one sees in the Italy project.

    Mmaddi:
    I believe G2 is found at equally high percentages in Anatolia (may be 10%), so again it may be difficult to distinguish Anatolian versus Arabic contribution (or versus even earlier ones). But I have never looked into G.

    cacio

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  • F.E.C.
    replied
    By these data seems that J's have outnumbered us, poor R1b1c, even in central Italy.
    Then I see that at the end of the day R1b1c is the first haplogroup in Italy and I wonder where those R1b1c guys are (do frequencies of 99.9% in the North give balance to the whole picture? ).
    Anyway Abruzzo (where L'Aquila is), unlike Latium which is central Italy, is traditionally regarded by Italians as southern more than central Italy. Why? History...
    Last edited by F.E.C.; 2 March 2007, 05:48 AM.

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Vince:

    nice maps. I am ignorant of J - so I don't know if there is any consensus about the origin and meaning of J2a vs J2b. Anyway, J2a seems to have the clearest cline and what one would expect from an Anatolian migration. My conjecture about J1 being highest in Sicily is not confirmed by the data- perhaps a further sign of the low genetic impact of the Arabs? J2b has smaller frequencies, so as usual there may be random variability. Still, it's hard to dismiss the fact that it goes all the way up to the NW - you would almost take it as an autochtonous haplogroup...

    Your maps are telling very interesting stories.

    cacio
    As I noted in my previous posting, of the 5 J1's in the project, Bonnie Schrack believes that 2 of them represent a very early Anatolian migration into the Mediterranean. So right there, that takes away 40% of our J1's from a possible Arab contribution to Sicily's genetic heritage.

    I think one place to look for possible Arab contribution to Sicily's gene pool is with E3b and G2.

    In the case of E3b in the Sicily Project, we have 18 paternal lines from that haplogroup. Two of them have been SNP-tested and are M81+. They both have DYS385a-b=13-14, much different from most of the other E3b's. There are another two E3b's (non-SNP-tested) who have DYS385a-b=13-14, so I believe that they are probably also M81+. This would indicate that 4 of the 18 E3b paternal lines are M81+. Of course, M81+ is found in Berber populations, not Arab. But if you are looking for some sign of lasting contribution to Sicily from the rulers and colonists during the Muslim period in the Middle Ages, that would fit what you're looking for. I believe most of the Muslims in Sicily during that period were Berber, not Arab.

    Also, I've been surprised by the high level of G/G2 in our yDNA results. We have 11 of them. My understanding is that G2 is found at relatively high levels in Arab populations. Someone please correct if I'm wrong about that or if there are other possibilities for deep ancestry of a G/G2 with recent Sicilian ancestry.

    Mike

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  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    Vince:

    very informative map. The cline appears very clearly in this graphical representation. In the raw data I wrote down, it was less clear.

    Some comments from steering at your graph and at the data. The overall pattern seems to be dictated by J2, as it is much more frequent. A quick glance at the data does indeed suggest some decrease in J2 as you move N. But what is interesting is that J2 remains high (>20%) into Tuscany and the Marche. The big drop happens really with the Appennine (I suspect the map smooths out the breaks). Equally interesting, Sicily is not the max. Calabria is. Sicily is around the levels of the rest of S Italy. (This reminds me of an old map of Cavalli Sforza, based not on Y/mtdna, but on other markers. He found the first principal component was based in Reggio Calabria and Messina, not in Sicily).

    With J1 the situation is much less clear. Partly, this is due to the smaller frequencies, at these level, one is bound to find lots of variation. However, from looking at the data, I'd say that Sicily is here clearly at the top, with a consistent 7% or so. After that, I don't really detect any clinal pattern btw S and C Italy. While this may be due to the small size, there may be more to it. The higher fraction in Sicily may be easily attributed to the Arabs in the Middle Age. However, if they had been the main source of J1 in Italy, I'd have expected to see more of a cline. Instead, we don't, which I would take as evidence that J1 in S and C Italy has other sources. Neolithic, Roman trades and slaves (including Jews). I wonder if anything is known about the Italian Jews - at the haplotype level, I mean.

    cacio
    Perhaps it's useful to look at the breakdown we have in the Sicily Project. We have 112 yDNA results so far, but there are 4 pairs of results from the same paternal line. So essentially we have 108 distinct yDNA results.

    Of those 108, 32 are J (either J1 or J2), representing about 30% of the total. I wish I could give a breakdown by region of Sicily, say eastern vs. western, but I don't have those figures. J is further broken down by 5 J1 and 27 J2. The J1 figure is 4.6% of our total, a little less than the 7% figure you cite above. Perhaps that's due to not enough results yet in the project.

    Regarding J1, I think Jim Honeychuck had earlier mentioned in this thread that 2 of our J1's have DYS388=13, which is noticably lower than all J2's and most J1's. According to Bonnie Schrack of the J haplogroup project, this matches a finding in one of Cinnioglu's studies of Turkish subjects. So Bonnie theorizes that a J1 in Europe with DYS388=13 may be a descendant of a very early Neolithic migration from Anatolia west into the Mediterranean.

    Mike Maddi

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  • cacio
    replied
    Vince:

    nice maps. I am ignorant of J - so I don't know if there is any consensus about the origin and meaning of J2a vs J2b. Anyway, J2a seems to have the clearest cline and what one would expect from an Anatolian migration. My conjecture about J1 being highest in Sicily is not confirmed by the data- perhaps a further sign of the low genetic impact of the Arabs? J2b has smaller frequencies, so as usual there may be random variability. Still, it's hard to dismiss the fact that it goes all the way up to the NW - you would almost take it as an autochtonous haplogroup...

    Your maps are telling very interesting stories.

    cacio

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  • vinnie
    replied
    I wonder if anything is known about the Italian Jews - at the haplotype level, I mean.

    cacio[/QUOTE]

    Is there anything published on the haplogroups of modern Italian Jews?

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  • vineviz
    replied
    I, too, think that J1 probably has an ancient source in Italy. In any event J1, J2a, and J2b clearly have different stories to tell.

    Here are three more maps: for J1, J2a, and J2b. These depend on predictions based on minimal haplotypes, so they should be viewed with caution. Also, the scales are different in each map (i.e. bright red in one is not the same frequency as bright red in the others).

    http://www.vizachero.com/images/HapJ1.png
    http://www.vizachero.com/images/HapJ2a.png
    http://www.vizachero.com/images/HapJ2b.png

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