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CMH Question: I was but am I still?

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  • #46
    Cinnioglu (in FTDNA library) mentioned a unique J1 group in northern Turkey. This group had a short DYS 388=13 STRs. I believe that this was the basis for a search for the non Semitic line.

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    • #47
      Which dienekes discussion do you refer to? I think I have read and actually posted something in one of them. I think Dienekes was concerned about the Greek influence, ie he thought that the influence of the greeks in S Italy is much larger than what those papers seem to imply. Though I think so far it seems that C and S Italy have more J than Greece.

      cacio[/QUOTE]

      Cacio, thanks for the citations - I have read Semino '04. I was referring to Dienekes posting that precedes the Etruscan article that Jim sent the link to. Just wondering what you think about it.

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      • #48
        Josh, thanks for the tip. I just joined the Italy project and will seek him out.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by vinnie
          Josh, thanks for the tip. I just joined the Italy project and will seek him out.
          Be sure to also join the Haplogroup J project, if you haven't already:

          http://www.ftdna.com/public/Y-DNA_J

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          • #50
            Vinnie:

            regarding dienekes's post and the discussion there, as I wrote there too, I am overall skeptical of the Anatolian theory for the Etruscans, at least as it is now. It is based on the supposed finding that in Southern Tuscany there are Anatolian mtdna haplotypes (not even the majority, and really, we are talking about a town with 2,000 inhabitants). However, my overall impression from other papers is that a lot of Anatolian and Middle Eastern stuff is regularly uncovered all over Central Italy, in areas that have nothing to do with the Etruscans. There are mtdna L lineages floating all over, and for the Y chromosome, as you know, there's plenty of J1 and what else (like my own L, or K2). I take this to mean that Italy has a lot of Middle Eastern influences, but I don't think this could be related just to the Etruscans. The spread of agriculture is certainly one of the main determinants, but after that there have been lots of events that could have added layers of eastern and southern dna: various invasions, the phoenicians, slaves and traders in roman times, and so on. Even if each of these has a small impact, the sum of them becomes large. But as said, this is just an impression, I have not seen conclusive studies, nor probably could there be, given the complex historical events that have characterized central and southern Italy.

            On an unrelated note about Tuscany, the poet Petrarca seems to have been mtdna J2 (I have not seen the article, but just the reference in dienekes). Yet another non H in Tuscany (though hardly exotic). I wonder if they'll ever allow Dante's body to be tested... Plus we really would like to know the Y chromosome. R1b's or J's?

            cacio

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            • #51
              Originally posted by josh w.
              Cinnioglu (in FTDNA library) mentioned a unique J1 group in northern Turkey. This group had a short DYS 388=13 STRs. I believe that this was the basis for a search for the non Semitic line.
              Two of these were found in Sicily. They are on FTDNA's J Project, N32783 and N26910. I haven't seen any further north in Italy.

              J1's with DYS388= 15 or 16 in or near Rome sound like good candidates to be descendants of the first Christian converts from Judaism.

              Jim
              J1 DYS388=13

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              • #52
                Originally posted by cacio
                Though I think so far it seems that C and S Italy have more J than Greece.
                Hi cacio,

                why do you assume that central and southern Italy have more J than Greece? I've never heard of it, nor it seems from the data collected as far as I know.
                Mind that I don't mean to be argumentative

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                • #53
                  Francesco:

                  there was a discussion about J1 in Italy in dienekes's blog, and the papers cited there do seem to imply that J1 is more frequent in Central/Southern Italy than Greece. See
                  http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/02...etruscans.html

                  and in particular the comments, not just dienekes's text. The discussion was about J1, though, not J2 - I'll have to look at those paper again for J2.

                  cacio

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by F.E.C.
                    Hi cacio,

                    why do you assume that central and southern Italy have more J than Greece? I've never heard of it, nor it seems from the data collected as far as I know.
                    Mind that I don't mean to be argumentative
                    Table 1 of the Di Giacomo paper on J has breakdowns for 22 populations.

                    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf

                    Greece shows 1.6% J1 and southern Italy shows 3.9%. Sardinia is at 5.9%, Egypt has 12.8%, Turkey has 9.5%, and Syria has 18%.

                    Also, for all J (J*+J1+J2) the paper shows Greece at 20% and southern Italy at 24.3%.

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                    • #55
                      I see, sorry but I didn't understand you referred to J1. Grazie.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by vineviz
                        Table 1 of the Di Giacomo paper on J has breakdowns for 22 populations.

                        http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HaploJ.pdf

                        Greece shows 1.6% J1 and southern Italy shows 3.9%. Sardinia is at 5.9%, Egypt has 12.8%, Turkey has 9.5%, and Syria has 18%.

                        Also, for all J (J*+J1+J2) the paper shows Greece at 20% and southern Italy at 24.3%.

                        I have read that haplogroup J2 reaches frequencies of 16.7-29.1% in areas of Southern Italy. Greeks seem to have around 20-25% J2. Both areas are pretty similar when it comes to J2 percentages.



                        Y-DNA: J2a*



                        Y-DNA: J2a*

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by vineviz

                          Also, for all J (J*+J1+J2) the paper shows Greece at 20% and southern Italy at 24.3%.
                          Maybe it is true that J1 and J2 are more common in some parts of southern Italy rather than Greece, but I dissent when we talk about central Italy (not only Tuscany).

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by F.E.C.
                            Maybe it is true that J1 and J2 are more common in some parts of southern Italy rather than Greece, but I dissent when we talk about central Italy (not only Tuscany).

                            I am pretty sure that once you get into central Italy especially north of Lazio the frequencies of haplogroup J (J1 and J2) drop drastically.



                            Y-DNA: J2a*

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by F.E.C.
                              Maybe it is true that J1 and J2 are more common in some parts of southern Italy rather than Greece, but I dissent when we talk about central Italy (not only Tuscany).
                              It is undoubtedly true that, as a rule, the frequency of J declines in the north of Italy.

                              But even as far north as L'Aquila (central Italy by any definition), di Giacomo found that nearly 35% of the population was J. Even Verona is over 25%.

                              J doesn't really start to drop to truly low levels until you hit the northern Appenines or the Alps.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                                Two of these were found in Sicily. They are on FTDNA's J Project, N32783 and N26910. I haven't seen any further north in Italy.

                                J1's with DYS388= 15 or 16 in or near Rome sound like good candidates to be descendants of the first Christian converts from Judaism.

                                Jim
                                J1 DYS388=13
                                Jim, do you have any info on 385b=21? Otherwise, I match the CMH exactly, and the only other person I match exactly at FTDNA is also from the same region, Abruzzo.

                                Comment

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