Ireland's Niall of 9 Hostages

[Jambalaia32]

Why were they called 9 Hostages? And is their DNA group so unusual? Aren't most European males y-R1b?

[MMaddi]

Saying most Europeans are R1b is like saying most Europeans are Caucasian! It doesn't tell you very much.

There are several subclades of R1b1c (which is the vast majority of European R1bs) which correlate well with geographical areas, mainly Ireland (R1b1c7), Spain (R1b1c6) and "northern Germany & Netherlands/southern Scandinavia" (R1b1c9).

Those geographical areas refer to where the subclade originated, although in the case of R1b1c7 it's pretty much still found only among those of Irish descent. In the case of R1b1c9, although it originated in the area I mentioned above, it's also found fairly widely in men of English and Scottish descent, due to the invasions of the British Isles by the Vikings and Germanic tribes. It also has been found, with limited testing, in men with Italian descent (me being one) and Romanian descent among others. That may have something to do, in the case of Italy, with the Lombards from Germany settling in Italy after the fall of the Roman Empire and with the Normans and Lombards in Sicily in the period of the Middle Ages.

So European R1b's aren't as plain vanilla as they used to be. There's also the prospect that more SNPs defining geographically-based subclades may be discovered in the near future.

Mike Maddi

[Jambalaia32]

indistinctly distinct.

Thanks for your answer; that helps .Yes,I do tend to lump them all together as" R1b the White Man Gene".And i understood that the extra mutations could make them into countries or subgroups in Europe.In fact if you change R1B to R1A then you'd be one of the Guys from India or somethin',change a few letters and numbers and you could be halfway around the world-I understand that.I guess Nialls mutations are from a region in Ireland -OK,but I just thought he was another R1b.

[iberiandave]

MMaddi: Is this certain? "There's also the prospect that more SNPs defining geographically-based subclades may be discovered in the near future."That would be the ticket for most of us I'm sure; to find out what tribes we come from.

[MMaddi]

MMaddi: Is this certain? "There's also the prospect that more SNPs defining geographically-based subclades may be discovered in the near future."That would be the ticket for most of us I'm sure; to find out what tribes we come from.

That's the consensus, or perhaps reasonable hope, among researchers and people who are interested in deep ancestry.

David Faux particularly believes this. He's the president of Ethnoancestry, the genetic genealogy company that tests for the SNPs that define R1b1c9 and R1b1c10, which FTDNA does not presently offer tests for. (That may change next year because a scientific paper came out recently that published all the information necessary for labs to test for those SNPs. Up to now, Ethnoancestry is the only commercial testing lab that has the information and can perform the tests.)

Faux's estimate is that S21, which defines R1b1c9, should be found in about 20% of European R1b's. The "Irish" SNP, M222, also is found in a significant percentage of European R1b's. All together he estimates that only 50% of R1b1c men have a SNP that's been discovered to define their subclade. But he expects that rapid progress will be made to find new SNPs that define new subclades.

If he's right, then 2007 may be quite an interesting year.

Mike

[penguin]

mike:

for origins from northern england, for those with r1b (presumably r1b1c), do you know what the distribution looks like for different subclades?

(incidentally, you and i are both T5 and, if I had a y chromosome, I suspect r1b as well (given results of others with my surname), though i guess until i know what subclade of r1b that isn't too striking).

[MMaddi]

mike:

for origins from northern england, for those with r1b (presumably r1b1c), do you know what the distribution looks like for different subclades?

(incidentally, you and i are both T5 and, if I had a y chromosome, I suspect r1b as well (given results of others with my surname), though i guess until i know what subclade of r1b that isn't too striking).

Sorry, if there is some breakdown of R1b/R1b1c for northern England, I don't know what it shows. Just a guess, but it's probably mostly R1b1c* (no known subclade) with some R1b1c9 thrown in.

Mike

[Nagelfar]

Yes,I do tend to lump them all together as" R1b the White Man Gene"....In fact if you change R1B to R1A then you'd be one of the Guys from India or somethin'

I know you're being metaphorical/rhetorical, but just to be correct; R1a can be found in traditionally "whiter" (by which I mean fairer of color, blond hair blue eyed) populations than the majority of R1b; that is, in Scandinavia & the baltic. R2 is found in India ;-)

[jr9162]

Is this what you guys are looking for?

http://www.vizachero.com/images/R1bClades.pdf

JR