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Geography of R1b

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  • Geography of R1b

    I have had 37 markers identified on my Y chromosome and my haplogroup is R1b (M343).
    I know my paternal grand father was born in Ireland. I intend (sometime after the holidays) to test my mtDna. I know my maternal great grandmother was born in Spain.
    The biggest % of my haplogroup migrated into Ireland, England and Spain.
    Is there something I can do to narrow the choice of Country my folks are from?
    It would be really interesting if both sets of grandparents were more likely to have come from Spain.

  • #2
    Geography of R1b

    This may help:
    Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b and its Subclades

    R M207 (UTY2), M306 (S1), S4, S8, S9
    • R* -
    • R1 M173
    R1b M343
    • • • R1b* -
    • • • R1b1 P25
    • • • • R1b1* -
    • • • • R1b1a M18
    • • • • R1b1b M73
    • • • • R1b1c M269, S3, S10, S13, S17
    • • • • • R1b1c* -
    • • • • • R1b1c1 M37
    • • • • • R1b1c2 M65
    • • • • • R1b1c3 M126
    • • • • • R1b1c4 M153
    • • • • • R1b1c5 M160
    • • • • • R1b1c6 SRY2627 (M167)
    • • • • • R1b1c7 M222
    • • • • • R1b1c8 P66
    • • • • • R1b1c9 S21
    • • • • • • R1b1c9* -
    • • • • • • R1b1c9a L1 (S26)
    • • • • • • R1b1c9b S29
    • • • • • R1b1c10 S28
    • • • • R1b1d M335
    M37, M65, M126 and M160 are rare markers which were discovered in Australia, Spain and Europeans, respectively.

    M153 originated in Spain and is observed among Latinos in the New World.

    SRY2627 (M167) also arose in Spain and is also observed in SW England and Ireland at very low frequencies.

    M222 has recently been shown by EthnoAncestry to mark the "Irish" subgroup of R1b, characterizing the series of Irish surnames associated with the Ui Neill lineage of Northwest Ireland (descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages) and deeper relatives, including a significant proportion of people in the West of Scotland, via the Dalriadic migration.

    P66 was detected in a sample from Italy. It has only been observed once to date, although this marker has been tested much less often than the others.

    S21, is very common, approximately 25% of M269-carrying Western European males are in this group. The marker has been observed in males from many parts of Europe: Norway, Italy, Germany, England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Around 40% of men in Northern Holland carry the marker! S21 defines a subgroup in which there are two additional informative SNPs, S26 and S29 (see map popup). The “Frisian” group of R1b is S21+, as are many other subgroups.

    S26 is the SNP in the primer binding site responsible for the null allele at DYS439 which was first recognised by Leo Little. It is a subgroup of the S21 group and appears to have a concentration in England.

    S29 is also a subgroup of S21 and has so far only been seen in England, correlations with STR haplotypes indicate that this is likely a pre-Anglo-Saxon British type.

    S28 is the second most common subtype of R1b. Just under 10% of the M269-carrying Western European males are in this group. It has been observed in Greece, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France, Poland, Norway and the Netherlands. It is also present in Scotland, Wales and England.

    This was compiled from various sources, ISOGG, FTDNA, Ethnoancestry,...
    Floyd Oakes
    Y-I1a
    mt-K1a

    Comment


    • #3
      I do wonder though, because there is R1a in my family tree, that whether the Scythians carried it over with them to the Slavs? Sarmatians were also know to have this DNA as well. As far as I know, the people of the Proto-Scythian culture were the first to tame the horse..

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom Fox
        I have had 37 markers identified on my Y chromosome and my haplogroup is R1b (M343).
        ...
        Is there something I can do to narrow the choice of Country my folks are from?
        Of what ancestry are your nearest 37-marker neighbors on Ysearch? Can you tell us your Ysearch ID?

        Comment


        • #5
          Family records

          Originally posted by Tom Fox
          I have had 37 markers identified on my Y chromosome and my haplogroup is R1b (M343).
          I know my paternal grand father was born in Ireland. I intend (sometime after the holidays) to test my mtDna. I know my maternal great grandmother was born in Spain.
          The biggest % of my haplogroup migrated into Ireland, England and Spain.
          Is there something I can do to narrow the choice of Country my folks are from?
          It would be really interesting if both sets of grandparents were more likely to have come from Spain.
          This is the best source to help validate whatever information you find. I'd try Ancestry.Com for a while and see what you can colllect from there. All the rest is trying to obtain wills, parish/church records, birth/death certificates.

          The DNA is nice but it does have its limits. Basically put for most people it may prove to be totally useless you find matches of at least 25 markers (European R1b people need at least this many tested).

          The other part is there's no way to identify country of origin with DNA, just a guesstimate perhaps where the mutation was created. For R1b* its really tough due to the fact its found all over Europe with highest numbers, and its heavily concentrated in Western Europe. Pretty large geographical region, it would be as difficult to find a needle in the Superdome to find R1b*'s ancestral home, let alone country (countries didn't exists over 30,000 yrs ago). In the interim period from c. 35,000 y.a., migrations would have occured from this ancient time all the way to the present.

          Nothing is static, at least for most human populations (always on the move).

          Even my Haplogroup R1b1c6 is specified as originated in Iberia, but nobody can get a specific date of the mutation without a great degree of variance. Let alone if it's an Iron Age mutation c. 2,500 y.a. then there's still a huge gap of time when my ancestors could have moved all over the globe thus defying my effort to pinpoint my ancestors recent "homeland". The records are so important and hopefully you'll match somebody who has a collection of family records related to your most recent ancestors and is willing to share.

          Trying to determine frequency of where the haplogroup is located is in no way a guarantee to pinpoint what country your family is from. Just like surnames are no guarantee that given surnames are all related; distant, or close. Basically put, and in most cases, for identifying country of origin is where records hold the greater value than DNA tests.
          Last edited by Arch Yeomans; 26 November 2006, 05:38 AM. Reason: typo

          Comment


          • #6
            Geography of R1b1

            Thanks for the detailed information. I continue searching for records etc. Just hoped that there may have been a step with the project which I may have been missing.
            My Y-search ID: AYSHQ

            Comment


            • #7
              How did your R1b haplogroup get narrowed down to R1b1c6? Did you have to get an SNP or did the company categorize you that way? My dad's is still categorized as R1b1. Is it possible that it will change in the future or at this stage is it going to stay there? R1b1 doesn't seem to reveal much about ancestry like some of the other branches do.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by haplogroupc
                How did your R1b haplogroup get narrowed down to R1b1c6? Did you have to get an SNP or did the company categorize you that way? My dad's is still categorized as R1b1. Is it possible that it will change in the future or at this stage is it going to stay there? R1b1 doesn't seem to reveal much about ancestry like some of the other branches do.
                His haplogroup may have been reclassified due to a match with someone that had a DSNP done. The only reliable way is to have the Deep SNP test done for yourself.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If I recall correctly, Arch had the Deep SNP-R1b done and tested positive for SRY2627 (R1b1c6).

                  That's how he knows he is R1b1c6.

                  GvdM above tested positive for S21 (and nothing beyond it) and is thus a confirmed R1b1c9*.

                  I tested positive for M269 (R1b1c) and negative thus far for every blessed thing beyond it. That is why I am R1b1c*.

                  SNP testing is necessary to confirm one's haplogroup status. Otherwise, all you have is a prediction based on your haplotype.

                  Here's the ISOGG R Tree.

                  R M207 (UTY2), M306 (S1), S4, S8, S9
                  • R* -
                  • R1 M173
                  • • R1* -
                  • • R1a SRY10831.2 (SRY1532)
                  • • • R1a* -
                  • • • R1a1 M17, M198
                  • • • • R1a1* -
                  • • • • R1a1a M56
                  • • • • R1a1b M157
                  • • • • R1a1c M64.2, M87, M204
                  • • R1b M343
                  • • • R1b* -
                  • • • R1b1 P25
                  • • • • R1b1* -
                  • • • • R1b1a M18
                  • • • • R1b1b M73
                  • • • • R1b1c M269, S3, S10, S13, S17
                  • • • • • R1b1c* -
                  • • • • • R1b1c1 M37
                  • • • • • R1b1c2 M65
                  • • • • • R1b1c3 M126
                  • • • • • R1b1c4 M153
                  • • • • • R1b1c5 M160
                  • • • • • R1b1c6 SRY2627 (M167)
                  • • • • • R1b1c7 M222
                  • • • • • R1b1c8 P66
                  • • • • • R1b1c9 S21 (added)
                  • • • • • • R1b1c9* -
                  • • • • • • R1b1c9a L1 (S26) (added)
                  • • • • • • R1b1c9b S29 (added)
                  • • • • • R1b1c10 S28 (added)
                  • • • • R1b1d M335
                  • R2 M124

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My dad was originally categorized as R1b and he had the SNP and his haplogroup was confirmed as R1b. But later he was categorized as R1b1. Should he have another SNP to see if his haplogroup is something else?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by haplogroupc
                      My dad was originally categorized as R1b and he had the SNP and his haplogroup was confirmed as R1b. But later he was categorized as R1b1. Should he have another SNP to see if his haplogroup is something else?
                      Whether to order a DeepSNP test is up to you and your Dad. He is almost certainly actually R1b1c, simply because R1b1*, R1b1a, and R1b1b are very rare. He might be R1b1c4, R1b1c6, or R1b1c7, but these are fairly uncommon too.

                      The most common subhaplogroups in this matter are R1b1c9 and R1b1c10, but FTDNA does not test those--the test for them is still proprietary to another company, Ethnoancestry.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tom Fox
                        My Y-search ID: AYSHQ
                        Sorry to take so long to get back to you.

                        Here are all the Ysearch entries that are within a genetic distance of 6 from you, at the full 37 markers:

                        http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...smatches_max=6

                        If we ignore the Americans who don't know their specific European origin, your nearest neighbor is a Welshman, TT6MP, who is 5 steps away. At 6 steps away, you have a couple of Germans and a Hungarian on the one hand, and a couple of Irishmen and an Englishman on the other.

                        Offhand, one possibility is an Anglo-Saxon heritage, which would logically find matches of roughly that genetic distance in both the British Isles and the Saxon homeland. But frankly, in cases like yours, more resolution is really needed. We may be seeing 'accidental convergence' on one side or the other. Have you considered a DeepSNP test, or an upgrade to 67 markers? The additional 30 markers are 'slow movers', and hence shake out 'accidental convergence' in favor of semi-deep ancestry.
                        Last edited by lgmayka; 30 November 2006, 07:05 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lgmayka
                          Whether to order a DeepSNP test is up to you and your Dad. He is almost certainly actually R1b1c, simply because R1b1*, R1b1a, and R1b1b are very rare. He might be R1b1c4, R1b1c6, or R1b1c7, but these are fairly uncommon too.

                          The most common subhaplogroups in this matter are R1b1c9 and R1b1c10, but FTDNA does not test those--the test for them is still proprietary to another company, Ethnoancestry.
                          I looked at the Ethnoancestry website and it's amazing. Thank you. I didn't know it existed. I had no idea it has become possible to be tested for all of those different mutations. I'm definitely ordering their SNP test for my dad.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Very Helpful, thank you!

                            Originally posted by lgmayka
                            Whether to order a DeepSNP test is up to you and your Dad. He is almost certainly actually R1b1c, simply because R1b1*, R1b1a, and R1b1b are very rare. He might be R1b1c4, R1b1c6, or R1b1c7, but these are fairly uncommon too.

                            The most common subhaplogroups in this matter are R1b1c9 and R1b1c10, but FTDNA does not test those--the test for them is still proprietary to another company, Ethnoancestry.
                            Thanks for the explanation. I have three R1b's in my Bukovina Hungarian project (out of 21 total) and was trying to figure out whether it would be worthwhile to have them SNP tested. It looks like it's not (at least at this time).

                            Now, if only I could figure out how they wound up in Transylvania :-)

                            Beth Long

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Beth Long
                              I have three R1b's in my Bukovina Hungarian project (out of 21 total) and was trying to figure out whether it would be worthwhile to have them SNP tested. It looks like it's not (at least at this time).
                              A Romanian R1b recently reported that he is S21+ (R1b1c9). But this SNP is not tested by FTDNA at the moment, only Ethnoancestry.

                              An executive of Ethnoancestry, I think, claimed that many central and eastern Europeans were S28+ (R1b1c10). But this is another SNP only tested by Ethnoancestry right now. And of course, his claim might be somewhat exaggerated in order to encourage sales.

                              I would always encourage more markers, though, particularly for central and eastern Europeans. Researchers need to learn more about the haplotypes in that region. There may be surprises!
                              Last edited by lgmayka; 15 January 2007, 06:56 PM.

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