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Could these 2 people be related

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  • Could these 2 people be related

    Wonder if someone with more knowledge could comment on the following comparison, I know it is like comparing apples and oranges, as it is comparing an old Ancestry / Sorenson test with an FTDNA one, does anyone think the 2 people from the test could be related?

    Capture.JPG

    Am asking, before we commit to further testing

    Thanks

  • #2
    If I'm reading it correctly, the two men have two differences up to Y-37, except that Person B also did not have results for five markers (DYS607, DYS576, DYS570, and CDYa/CDYb).
    You would need to have Person B do at least the Y-37 test at FTDNA, in order to really know if there were more differences on the missing locations. Without knowing if they match at those missing markers, they could be related, but far back in time.

    The FTDNA Learning Center has a page for "What is a Relevant Match?" It shows that at the Y-37 level, the Genetic Distance of Relevant Matches is 0-4. You can't know if Persons A and B might have more than four differences without testing and obtaining results for the missing markers.

    Any chance that the surname is the same, or similar? If so, then another page in the Learning Center has a chart for "If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 37 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?" and another for "If two men share a surname, how should the genetic distance at 25 Y-chromosome STR markers be interpreted?" The latter shows that a match at 25 markers, with one difference (as shown in your chart), they could be related. But we already know there is at least one difference beyond Y-25, so it would be much better to have full information for at least Y-37, and better at Y-67.

    Have either of you done the Family Finder test, or otherwise have tested autosomal DNA at the same place (23andMe, Ancestry, or MyHeritage)? If both have tested autosomal DNA, but at different places, you could transfer to FTDNA to compare (or use GEDmatch.com). Autosomal results would tell you if you are related, usually within the last 4-6 generations.

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    • #3
      Thank you for your reply.

      Would anything be gained by person A upgrading to Y-111, as we believe that might perhaps provide some more STR values to match person B? We have a bit of a family mystery i.e. Person A's great grandfather we think switched his surname.

      We believe it was originally the same as person B's, we have autosomal matches to other people that descend from people with the same surname as person B, though some of these people don't believe we are connected, as there are no with records. Person A great grandfather went to America applied for naturalization then disappeared, the first record for A's great grandfather appeared when he married back in the UK, no trace has ever been found of birth records for A's great grandfather or his father listed on the marriage certificate, though his mother's name matches with someone related to the autosomal shared matches. Person A's great grandfather used what we think was his real surname as a middle name though a different spelling of it, also listed the same name as his father's first name.

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      • #4
        I don't know if this will help you but this is a good page explaining the conversions that need to be made when comparing a FTDNA test to an Ancestry/Sorenson test. Are the markers you showing on the spreadsheet already converted? It also shows the overlaps in markers tested up to 111 markers.

        http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/ADNA_FTDNA.html

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        • #5
          Are either Person A or B in any projects at FTDNA? There are surname projects, and also haplogroup and location projects. You might get better guidance from project administrators as to how to proceed, than any advice I can give. I would just say: get person B to test to Y-67. If you still match with few differences, you could both upgrade to Y-111 to see if the match is still close. Also, if Person A has any other matches at Y-67 that are close, and who have tested to the Y-111 level, he could see if they still hold at 111. Another point to consider is that if Person A might ever do the Big Y-700 in the future, that test includes the Y-111 markers and they will appear in his STR results. This is all in my humble opinion.

          For those people who Person A matches in autosomal DNA, what is the estimated relationship, total cM shared, and size of longest segment? DNA does not lie, whether these matches want to acknowledge it or not, particularly if the match is 3rd cousin or closer, but also for 4th cousin. For 5th cousin and beyond, there is also some type of relationship, it's just often harder to determine what that relationship is. You can use the Shared cM Tool at DNA Painter, and enter the amount of cMs shared. The results show the possible relationships. You can read more about the version 4 update of this tool, which explains its features.

          If you have found the marriage record for this great-grandfather, is the surname he used there the same as these other matches' surname? Did he change his surname in the U.K., or U.S.? Have you found him on a passenger list to the U.S., and when did he immigrate to the U.S.? Have you only found his Declaration of Intention ("First papers"), but not the Petition for Naturalization ("final papers")? Did he travel to the U.S. with his wife, and/or any children?

          If the U.K. marriage record was a church record (or a civil record that allows you to figure out the church in the locality), I would try searching the church records for baptisms of other children of the parents of this great-grandfather, to see if he had siblings (this depends on if the great-grandfather and his family attended the same church as his wife and her family).

          Since this great-grandfather's mother's name matches someone in a tree of a person who is related via autosomal matching, that match may be related through the great-grandfather's maternal line. The great-grandfather's mother would be the 2nd great-grandparent, and direct descendants from any of her possible other children could range from 3rd cousin to some degree of 2nd to 3rd cousin removed (once, twice, etc.). You can use charts for relationships, such as one by Alice J. Ramsey or another type, to visualize these connections.


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          • #6
            Again, thank you for the replies and advice. We think the MCRA for Person A and B is 8 generations back around, the male being born in 1685.

            One of the people that insists on records to prove kinship shares 101 cM across 6 segments, with Person A, the longest segment being 24 cM, if we are correct with our thinking about Person A's great grandfather, the doubter is a 2C1R to Person A, which the tool mentioned does suggest as one of the more likely outcomes.

            We know Person A's great grandfather travelled to the US, as we have a photograph with the studio name an location on it, which coincides with location of the "Declaration of Intent" which is dated in May, 1893, this matches the name on the passenger list leaving the UK, though we have never been able to find any return documentation, his marriage was in Scotland in 1898 though this was using his "new" name, which doesn't match the surname of Person B, we can only guess that he used a 3rd identity to return to the UK. We can only speculate as to why he changed his name, or why he went to Scotland as, if we are correct with his original identity, he was born in Durham, UK.

            We know when Person A's 2nd great-grandmother died the only surviving child that was not at the funeral was the mystery man, we've suggested to the doubters that was because he was "hiding" in Scotland, though they say without records that we can't know that is the case, it appears that one identity just disappears and his "new" identity appears, there are now death records for his original identity, no records exist for his father named on the wedding certificate. The people that doubt our theory are descendants, of Person A's great grandfather's sisters, we are struggling to find a closer male descendant than person B.

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            • #7
              You have hypotheses for which you need evidence to prove:
              1. Great-grandfather of Person A is of the same paternal line as potential Y-DNA match Person B < this is your current priority and subject of this thread
              2. Person A's great-grandparents were married in Scotland. You may have confirmed this, but as yet in your posts, you haven't shown how; if not confirmed, it is speculation.
              3. The Great-grandfather of A may have returned to the U.K. under yet another, third surname. This is really a speculation; do you have evidence of this?
              You need to confirm the Y-DNA connection:
              • If Person B can test to Y-67, and still only have up to 7 differences (preferably fewer), then they will probably be related. If both Person A and Person B test to Y-111, with two or less differences, it would be more likely they are related as 4th cousins or less.
              • If Person A and Person B have done autosomal tests, and show a relationship as 2nd to 4th cousins, that would help tie the knot. I would have Person B do autosomal testing for this comparison, if he has not done so yet. FTDNA usually has sales throughout the year; they usually do one for Father's Day in June, and often have "bundle" deals for Y-DNA tests, to include Family Finder or other tests.
              Is the person with the autosomal match of 101 cM total shared a match at FTDNA, or elsewhere? I ask because FTDNA currently includes very small segments, down to 1 cM, that other companies don't add in (FTDNA does have plans to change this, to be like the other companies, sometime soon). If the 101 cM is from a match at FTDNA, the method to get a more realistic amount of shared DNA is:
              1. Select the desired match from your match list, then click on the "Chromosome Browser" button at the top of the list.
              2. Next, on the Chromosome Browser page, select "Detailed Segment Data."
              3. Finally, from the detailed segment data, add up only the segments which are 7 cM or over to get the more realistic amount of DNA shared.
              Many times this will leave only the longest segment, but not always. If the largest segment is all that remains after excluding segments < 7 cM, that would change the relationship estimate from a possible 2C1R or similar to a more distant one.

              If the 101 cM match is not at FTDNA, but at another company, then with a largest 24 cM segment and 101 cM total shared, in addition to the 2C1R estimate given by DNA Painter, you should also consider the "half" relationships it shows for 101 cM (half 2C, half 1C2R, half 2C1R, half 1C3R, etc.). DNA Painter estimated that
              the furthest back you might need to go to find common ancestors with a match of 101cM is 4th Great Grandparent, or generation 7 on your pedigree chart.
              This is in the ballpark of your estimate of the MRCA being 8 generations back. Half cousins of any degree would mean a common ancestor with only one of Person A's ancestors, not a couple.

              Has anyone on either Person A's paternal or maternal sides done autosomal testing? At FTDNA, you can make a tree, and link any known relatives who match him at FTDNA to their place in the tree. This will then assign your matches into paternal and/or maternal tabs, and put a male or female icon with anyone who shares DNA with those known relatives. See "Family Finder - Family Matching Feature" in the FTDNA Learning Center for instructions. Roberta Estes' blog post, "Additional Relatives Added to Phased Family Matches at Family Tree DNA," shows the list of relatives who can be used for this feature. So, for example, if Person A has a cousin or uncle, etc. who appear in his match list, you could take advantage of this feature. The more known maternal and paternal relatives who show as matches at FTDNA that you link to your tree, the better the sorting becomes. Then, if someone like Person B (who is a likely Y-DNA match) does the Family Finder (FF) test at FTDNA, or transfers his raw data file from another company, these known relatives would help to show him as a paternal relative.

              Comment


              • #8
                KATM,

                Thank you for your response and advice.

                Person A's great grandfather's wedding is matter of record, we have seen the document on Scotlandspeople website, in fact this is the first time he is recorded to be using his new name. On the marriage certificate he listed his place of birth as England, but there are no records of the name he used for himself or his deceased father, though his mother's name is correctly recorded.

                The person ( Person C) that has the shared 101 cM with Person A, is at Ancestry and on GEDmatch, we are wary of thrulines, but when we enter what we believe to be Person A great grandfathers birth name, Ancestry also suggests the connection is 2C1R for Person A, whose paternal uncle and one cousin have also tested at Ancestry, though they share a lesser amount of DNA with Person C. Thrulines also suggests for Person A's paternal uncle, other people with shared DNA to the same family line, if we place what we believe to be the birth name.

                The use of a 3rd name etc. is as you state pure speculation, as we can find no trace of either Person A's great grandfather crossing back to the UK using either what we think was his birth name or the name he married with.

                Thank you for the suggestion of adding more people to a tree at FTDNA, we have now done this using people known to be both paternal and maternal connections to Person A, with some interesting discoveries.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sounds good. Unless there is some other way that Person A could be related to these matches at Ancestry, it certainly seems that the link is via the great-grandfather.

                  I'm glad you had other known relatives who had already done Family Finder testing at FTDNA, in order to take advantage of the Family Matching system, and that it is yielding results. I'm also glad that this Person C (the 101 cM match) at Ancestry is also at GEDmatch, so you can compare him and perhaps others using a chromosome browser. I would definitely save such information from GEDmatch, in case the match decides to delete his account there.

                  I hope Person B will agree to do further Y-DNA testing at FTDNA, which will help.

                  If you know Person A's great-grandfather's mother's name from other sources, and she is then listed correctly on the marriage record in Scotland, perhaps it is a situation of "NPE" (not the parent expected, or non-paternity event) for the father of Person A's great-grandfather. In other words, the great-grandfather's father may be related to, or even be Person B's ancestor, but was not recorded as such due to one of the reasons listed on the ISOGG page for "Non-paternity event" under the section "NPE Scenarios in the context of genetic genealogy."

                  You might check to see if any of the ancestors of Person B, or for that matter, Person C (or the relatives of Person C at Ancestry) had any ancestral locations close to Durham, UK. I see that the distance from Durham to just over the border in Scotland is roughly 100 miles, so depending upon where in Scotland the marriage occurred, perhaps we could speculate that the great-grandfather went there for work, to visit a relative or someone else, or another reason, and met the great-grandmother that way.

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