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  • scotdna
    replied
    Originally posted by jr9162
    Mike,
    Here's a link that reflects geographical locations in Europe of some subclades of R1b1
    http://www.vizachero.com/images/R1bClades.pdf

    50% of those tested having no subclades past R1b1c*? That's a significant amount of the group. Any rationale for EA's prediction?

    If FTDNA begins testing for S-series SNPs will only those ordering R1b DeepSNP tests after that point in time benefit, or will FTDNA consider upgrading those previously tested this year? Especially the additional SNP tests are added to the original bundle for the same fee...

    John
    Keep in mind that FTDna as yet doesn't even offer S21 or 228 while Ethnoancestry is about to introduce 3 new SNPs. I'm an FTDna customer but for SNPs EA seems to be the way. I'm only waiting to see if they'll bundle S21 & 28 with the new markers.

    Leave a comment:


  • jr9162
    replied
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    What you want from Ethnoancestry is not more markers. You want their S-series SNP test. This tests for S21 (R1b1c9), S26 (R1b1c9a), S29 (R1b1c9b) and S28 (R1b1c10). As I mentioned above, EA is the only company that presently tests for these SNPs. They charge $129 for the S-series for new customers; this includes a one-time fee to extract DNA from the sample.

    EA estimates that 50% of R1b1c's will test negative for all known SNPs (R1b1c1-R1b1c10), meaning the person has no SNPs beyond M269 (SNP which defines R1b1c) or that they have a SNP which has not been discovered yet. EA also estimates that about 20% of R1b1c's will test S21+. So that's a sizeable chunk of people.

    Mike
    Originally posted by MMaddi
    FT (Family Tree) Upgrade at EA is their special offer for FTDNA customers who want to test the S-series. It's meant for those who have taken the FTDNA R1b deep clade test and come back negative on the SNPs for R1b1c1-R1b1c8.

    It's not necessary to prove that you've taken the FTDNA R1b deep clade test. It's just recommended for those who have and are negative for those SNPs. Anyone can take advantage of that offer, even if they haven't taken the SNP test at FTDNA and are curious about their S21 and S28 status.

    Mike
    Mike,
    Here's a link that reflects geographical locations in Europe of some subclades of R1b1
    http://www.vizachero.com/images/R1bClades.pdf

    50% of those tested having no subclades past R1b1c*? That's a significant amount of the group. Any rationale for EA's prediction?

    If FTDNA begins testing for S-series SNPs will only those ordering R1b DeepSNP tests after that point in time benefit, or will FTDNA consider upgrading those previously tested this year? Especially the additional SNP tests are added to the original bundle for the same fee...

    John

    Leave a comment:


  • Nagelfar
    replied
    Originally posted by fmoakes
    EA also does STR marker tests. Ten of their markers are unique and can be ordered separately. This would give a total of 77 markers for an individual with FTDNA 67. MORE is still BETTER.
    http://www.gendna.net/ydnacomp.htm

    Since FTDNA is teamed with DNA fingerprint via the advanced orders; FTDNA is still the way to go. Albeit, EA still has the ten neither do, and Genebase has two no other does in addition to that. You still cover every other marker offered commercially with FTDNA and the advanced orders via DNA fingerprint.

    Leave a comment:


  • fmoakes
    replied
    EA also does STR marker tests. Ten of their markers are unique and can be ordered separately. This would give a total of 77 markers for an individual with FTDNA 67. MORE is still BETTER.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nagelfar
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    I looked at the ethnoancestry site. They have a Viking test which is for 27 markers. If my brother is getting the 67 marker FTDNA Y test, why should he pay another $250 for that? Won't the FTDNA test give him more information? It doesn't look like ethnoancestry has a database, just testing. What use will it be for my brother to use their products?
    Thanks once again!
    I think you're getting SNPs confused with STRs. Anything that is named a 12 marker, 25, marker, 37 marker or 67 marker test on FTDNA is a test of STRs. The "deepclade" FTDNA test is an SNP test. The Ethnoancestry S series tests are SNP tests.

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    Mike,
    I don't see "S-Series" test for $129 on ethnoancestry. Is it the "R1b FT upgrade?" What does FT stand for?

    We do know that from the 1600s till 1900s our paternal line was in Sweden so learning something from further back would be interesting to us. I think...
    Yes, FT (Family Tree) Upgrade at EA is their special offer for FTDNA customers who want to test the S-series. It's meant for those who have taken the FTDNA R1b deep clade test and come back negative on the SNPs for R1b1c1-R1b1c8.

    It's not necessary to prove that you've taken the FTDNA R1b deep clade test. It's just recommended for those who have and are negative for those SNPs. Anyone can take advantage of that offer, even if they haven't taken the SNP test at FTDNA and are curious about their S21 and S28 status.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • birdy06
    replied
    S Series test name?

    Mike,
    I don't see "S-Series" test for $129 on ethnoancestry. Is it the "R1b FT upgrade?" What does FT stand for?

    We do know that from the 1600s till 1900s our paternal line was in Sweden so learning something from further back would be interesting to us. I think...

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    I looked at the ethnoancestry site. They have a Viking test which is for 27 markers. If my brother is getting the 67 marker FTDNA Y test, why should he pay another $250 for that? Won't the FTDNA test give him more information? It doesn't look like ethnoancestry has a database, just testing. What use will it be for my brother to use their products?
    Thanks once again!
    What you want from Ethnoancestry is not more markers. You want their S-series SNP test. This tests for S21 (R1b1c9), S26 (R1b1c9a), S29 (R1b1c9b) and S28 (R1b1c10). As I mentioned above, EA is the only company that presently tests for these SNPs. They charge $129 for the S-series for new customers; this includes a one-time fee to extract DNA from the sample.

    EA estimates that 50% of R1b1c's will test negative for all known SNPs (R1b1c1-R1b1c10), meaning the person has no SNPs beyond M269 (SNP which defines R1b1c) or that they have a SNP which has not been discovered yet. EA also estimates that about 20% of R1b1c's will test S21+. So that's a sizeable chunk of people.

    You are correct. EA doesn't have a database, just testing. (Once you upload your brother's results to ysearch, you'll be in the biggest public database there is anyway.) However, if your brother has 492=13 when he gets his results from the upgrade to 67 markers, there's a good chance that he is S21+. The only way you'll know for sure is if you test the S-series at EA.

    It is possible that FTDNA will test for the S-series in the near future, sometime later this year, so you may want to wait for that. Of course, knowing that your brother is S21+ or not won't tell you a great deal about your recent ancestry, but it would indicate that your paternal line's deep ancestry (thousands of years ago) is probably from northern Europe, the area from northern Netherlands to southern Norway. If that information is not important to you, then it's not necessary to spend the money for the S-series.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • birdy06
    replied
    Why use ethnoancestry?

    I looked at the ethnoancestry site. They have a Viking test which is for 27 markers. If my brother is getting the 67 marker FTDNA Y test, why should he pay another $250 for that? Won't the FTDNA test give him more information? It doesn't look like ethnoancestry has a database, just testing. What use will it be for my brother to use their products?
    Thanks once again!

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    Thanks again Mike. My brother just upgraded and ordered the 67 marker test. Does it makes sense to wait till those results are back or upload him now to Ysearch? I see that the more conclusive information about the S series will be derived with the 67. What do you mean by "However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction." Isn't the haplogroup test a SNP test?

    I'll keep reading and learning! Thanks for your help.
    You can upload his results now and then update the account when you get the marker results for the upgrade to 67. That will allow you to do searches for close matches in the meantime, while you're waiting the new results.

    At this point the key marker in predicting S21 is DYS492. Over 90% of SNP-tested S21+'s have 492=13, while the general modal value for R1b is 492=12. So you may want to wait for those new results before doing anything about a SNP test. The reason I say that is because, presently, only Ethnoancestry tests for S21. So testing for S21 means a new DNA sample from your brother to another company.

    When I mentioned a prediction, I was referring to the practice of FTDNA and genetic genealogists in general of trying to predict haplogroup and subclades based on key marker values. I think that FTDNA can predict haplogroup, based on comparing a haplotype to SNP-tested individuals in their database with similar haplotypes, at over 95% accuracy. When you get to the level of subclades, for instance R1b1c7 or R1b1c9 as opposed to R1b1c, the accuracy isn't so good. So only a SNP test will be 100% certain in establishing the haplogroup and any subclade.

    Mike

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  • birdy06
    replied
    Have patience with me... more questions

    Thanks again Mike. My brother just upgraded and ordered the 67 marker test. Does it makes sense to wait till those results are back or upload him now to Ysearch? I see that the more conclusive information about the S series will be derived with the 67. What do you mean by "However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction." Isn't the haplogroup test a SNP test?

    I'll keep reading and learning! Thanks for your help.

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    Thanks Mike! I'll pass on what you shared with my brother. You really do need someone who knows more than you do when you first get into this. I deeply appreciate your help!
    One thing that I didn't mention is that you should upload your brother's results to www.ysearch.org, if you haven't already. Then you will be able to compare his results to many other R1b's there.

    When you go to ysearch, take a look at the S21 modal haplotype that someone put up there along with my haplotype in comparison, at http://tinyurl.com/37t2v8

    I'm S21+ and I match that haplotype perfectly, 26 out of 26 markers. That's saying a lot, since I have some unusual values in general for an R1b. The 26 markers in this S21 haplotype are the key ones, either to determine R1b in general or to show what an S21 is likely to have.

    So if your brother were to upgrade to 67 markers at FTDNA and compare his haplotype to this one and matched closely (at least 22 or more out of 26, especially 492), then there'd be a good chance he is S21+. However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction.

    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • birdy06
    replied
    Thanks Mike! I'll pass on what you shared with my brother. You really do need someone who knows more than you do when you first get into this. I deeply appreciate your help!

    Leave a comment:


  • MMaddi
    replied
    Originally posted by birdy06
    I'm a little late on this but it caught my eye as a new post today. My brother just got results from National Geographic as R1b (M343) His STRs are 393:13, 19:14, 391:11, 439:13, 389-1:13, 389-2:16, 388:12, 390:24, 426:12, 385a:11, 385b:15, 392:13

    Our paternal lineage is Swedish and I thought we'd show I1a and was surprized at the R1b till I read this:

    Overall, Hg I has a broad European distribution, from the British Isles east to the Ural Mountains of Russia and south to Anatolia and the Mediterranean Sea, but its strong geographic concentration in northwestern Europe has led Hg I to be nicknamed the "Viking" haplogroup (though some consider R1a to be the only true Viking haplogroup). http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/DK/D...ts-HgI1a.shtml

    Now I am wondering, is there any R1b testing to determine further Norse ancestory? What would going to Ethnoancestory tell us? Would you recommend it?
    The results you would get from FTDNA's deep clade test for R1b mainly are good if you have Irish or Spanish ancestry and to a certain extent other British Isles ancestry. Ethnoancestry tests for the S-series.

    The main SNP your brother might test positive for is S21, which is part of the S-series. The current understanding is that S21 probably represents R1b's with deep ancestry (thousands of years ago) from northern Europe, mainly northern Netherlands, northern Germany, Denmark and southern Norway. Not much SNP testing, at least by commercial companies like FTDNA and Ethnoancestry, has been done on Swedish ancestry R1b's, as far as I know.

    Of course, Denmark and Norway are Scandinavian countries. So it's possible that S21 might be found at significant levels among Swedes. Or perhaps your ancestors from long ago were from Denmark or Norway. So it might be worth testing the S-series. I'm sure Ethnoancestry would be thrilled by the chance to test someone of Swedish ancestry.

    Probably the best thing right now is to upload your brother's results, for free, from the National Geographic Project to FTDNA and upgrade to 37 or 67 markers. Not much can be said about an R1b with only 12 markers. The best indicator for S21 in the 12 markers your brother has now is 390. More often than not someone who is S21+ will have 390=23. But that's not written in stone. Some who are S21+ have 390=24. If you upgrade to 67 markers, you'll get a good indicator with 492. In over 90% of those who test S21+, 492=13.

    Mike Maddi

    Leave a comment:


  • birdy06
    replied
    New to this thread

    I'm a little late on this but it caught my eye as a new post today. My brother just got results from National Geographic as R1b (M343) His STRs are 393:13, 19:14, 391:11, 439:13, 389-1:13, 389-2:16, 388:12, 390:24, 426:12, 385a:11, 385b:15, 392:13

    Our paternal lineage is Swedish and I thought we'd show I1a and was surprized at the R1b till I read this:

    Overall, Hg I has a broad European distribution, from the British Isles east to the Ural Mountains of Russia and south to Anatolia and the Mediterranean Sea, but its strong geographic concentration in northwestern Europe has led Hg I to be nicknamed the "Viking" haplogroup (though some consider R1a to be the only true Viking haplogroup). http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/DK/D...ts-HgI1a.shtml

    Now I am wondering, is there any R1b testing to determine further Norse ancestory? What would going to Ethnoancestory tell us? Would you recommend it?

    Leave a comment:

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