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  • #31
    R1b1c - Searching for roots

    I started with the Genographic Project last year when my wife of 30 years gave it to me as a xmas gift. I don't know my paternal father and have always been asked (because of my dark hair & olive skin) where are you from? What kind of accent is that? etc... etc... I was raised my first 5 years in Odessa Texas, then Portland Oregon...

    I am in the Haplogroup – R1b1c beyond that, I have no idea.

    My last name is an adopted name. Although I can find a lot of Kelley(s) Kelly(s) with matching markers. None recent.

    My Ysearch ID is 45QJB

    I have added the addition test up (25 beyonbd the 12 original of Genographic project) to 37 through FTDNA

    My makers

    Locus DYS# Alleles

    1 393 13
    2 390 23
    3 19* 14
    4 391 11
    5 385a 10
    6 385b 14
    7 426 12
    8 388 12
    9 439 12
    10 389-1 13
    11 392 13
    12 389-2*** 29
    13 458 18
    14 459a 9
    15 459b 10
    16 455 11
    17 454 11
    18 447 24
    19 437 16
    20 448 19
    21 449 32
    22 464a** 15
    23 464b** 15
    24 464c** 16
    25 464d** 17
    26 460 10
    27 GATA H4 11
    28 YCA II a 19
    29 YCA II b 23
    30 456 15
    31 607 15
    32 576 20
    33 570 17
    34 CDY a 37
    35 CDY b 39
    36 442 12
    37 438 12

    Family Tree DNA only shows exact matches (45) for the 1st 12 markers.

    Ysearch - I can find some with as many as 25 marker matches. Unfortunately, not any with more than that...

    Can someone tell me a little more about about forefathers with the above info????

    Thanks

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Oscarkelley
      My Ysearch ID is 45QJB
      ...
      Can someone tell me a little more about about forefathers with the above info?
      Here are your nearest Ysearch neighbors at 37 markers:

      http://www.ysearch.org/search_result...ting_marker=27

      All of them are quite 'vanilla' (British Isles, or presumably so) except for this German guy from what is now Poland:

      http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.a...wuid=7YP6U&p=1

      Offhand, the combination of British Isles + Germanic says to me 'Saxon'. But that's just a guess. I would further suggest that if your recent origin were British Isles, you would probably see closer near-matches; so perhaps your recent origin is in or near Saxony itself.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Oscarkelley
        I started with the Genographic Project last year when my wife of 30 years gave it to me as a xmas gift. I don't know my paternal father and have always been asked (because of my dark hair & olive skin) where are you from? What kind of accent is that? etc... etc... I was raised my first 5 years in Odessa Texas, then Portland Oregon...

        I am in the Haplogroup – R1b1c beyond that, I have no idea.

        My last name is an adopted name. Although I can find a lot of Kelley(s) Kelly(s) with matching markers. None recent.

        My Ysearch ID is 45QJB

        I have added the addition test up (25 beyonbd the 12 original of Genographic project) to 37 through FTDNA

        My makers

        Locus DYS# Alleles

        1 393 13
        2 390 23
        3 19* 14
        4 391 11
        5 385a 10
        6 385b 14
        7 426 12
        8 388 12
        9 439 12
        10 389-1 13
        11 392 13
        12 389-2*** 29
        13 458 18
        14 459a 9
        15 459b 10
        16 455 11
        17 454 11
        18 447 24
        19 437 16
        20 448 19
        21 449 32
        22 464a** 15
        23 464b** 15
        24 464c** 16
        25 464d** 17
        26 460 10
        27 GATA H4 11
        28 YCA II a 19
        29 YCA II b 23
        30 456 15
        31 607 15
        32 576 20
        33 570 17
        34 CDY a 37
        35 CDY b 39
        36 442 12
        37 438 12

        Family Tree DNA only shows exact matches (45) for the 1st 12 markers.

        Ysearch - I can find some with as many as 25 marker matches. Unfortunately, not any with more than that...

        Can someone tell me a little more about about forefathers with the above info????

        Thanks
        It's late, so I'll just give you the basic things about your haplotype.

        The main thing that stands out are your results for the following markers:
        393-23
        447-24
        460-10

        All those are 1 off from the general R1b modal values for those markers. They do correspond to what's called Frisian R1b. Frisian refers to the area of northern Holland, where this is a common haplotype. I have these values too.

        Frisian R1b haplotypes have been found, when SNP tested by Ethnoancestry (another genetic genealogy testing company), to be positive for S21, the SNP that defines R1b1c9. I found out a year ago through a SNP test with Ethnoancestry that I'm S21+.

        The current thinking about S21 is that it represents deep ancestry (thousands of years ago) from the area of northern Holland/northern Germany/Denmark/southern Norway. The SNP is still undergoing testing in people of various ethnic backgrounds, but is found at high levels in English and Scottish lines (probably due to invasion of the British Isles by German tribes and Vikings after the Romans left). It has been found in both the Italian paternal lines tested for it (mine being one) and recently a Romanian tested positive. Ethnoancestry's president David Faux believes that about 20% of European R1b's should be positive for S21.

        You look like a good candidate for being S21. The strongest indicator of S21+ status is the 492 marker, which is included in the upgrade to 67 markers. Virtually every S21+ person (about 90%) who has upgraded to 67 markers has a 492 value of 13, while the R1b modal for 492 is 12.

        Mike Maddi

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by MMaddi
          It's late, so I'll just give you the basic things about your haplotype.

          The main thing that stands out are your results for the following markers:
          393-23
          447-24
          460-10

          All those are 1 off from the general R1b modal values for those markers. They do correspond to what's called Frisian R1b. Frisian refers to the area of northern Holland, where this is a common haplotype. I have these values too.

          Mike Maddi

          Mike.... Do you have any thoughts about this sequence?

          I have no matches at any level..12, 25, or 37... and no Y side history to point in a direction. R1b1c* confirmed.

          393/13 390/25 19/14 391/12 385a/11 385b/14
          426/11 388/12 439/11 389-1/13 392/13 389-2/29

          458/17 459a/9 459b/9 455/11 454/11 447/25 437/15
          448/20 449/30 464a/15 464b/15 454c/16 464d/17

          460/10 GATAH4/11 YCIIa/19 YCIIb/22 456/16 607/15
          576/15 570/16 CDYa/36 CDYb/38 442/12 438/12


          Thanks for any insights.

          scot

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Oscarkelley
            I started with the Genographic Project last year when my wife of 30 years gave it to me as a xmas gift. I don't know my paternal father

            I am in the Haplogroup – R1b1c beyond that, I have no idea.

            My last name is an adopted name. Although I can find a lot of Kelley(s) Kelly(s) with matching markers. None recent.

            My Ysearch ID is 45QJB

            Thanks
            Oscar... welcome to the club. There are a few of us on here with similar backgrounds. It may take a few years but we will eventually get answers from this research.

            Scot

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by scotdna
              Mike.... Do you have any thoughts about this sequence?

              I have no matches at any level..12, 25, or 37... and no Y side history to point in a direction. R1b1c* confirmed.

              393/13 390/25 19/14 391/12 385a/11 385b/14
              426/11 388/12 439/11 389-1/13 392/13 389-2/29

              458/17 459a/9 459b/9 455/11 454/11 447/25 437/15
              448/20 449/30 464a/15 464b/15 454c/16 464d/17

              460/10 GATAH4/11 YCIIa/19 YCIIb/22 456/16 607/15
              576/15 570/16 CDYa/36 CDYb/38 442/12 438/12


              Thanks for any insights.

              scot
              I'd have to say just looking quickly at it that nothing in particular stands out. Your 390=25 is not that common (one above R1b modal) and your 426=11, 439=11, YCIIb=22, 459b=9 are all one below the R1b modal. All those together probably account for your lack of matches.

              The estimate is that if all R1b's were tested for the S-series SNPs offered by Ethnoancestry, plus FTDNA's deep clade test, about 50% would be classified R1b1c*. This either means that those classified are truly R1b1c* or have a SNP that hasn't been discovered yet.

              Mike

              Comment


              • #37
                Confusion re: R1b1c*

                Thanks Stevo,

                My results from ethnoancestry. S21- S26- S28- S29-

                Have forwarded all my data to Dr. John McEwan .

                David Burnett

                Comment


                • #38
                  New to this thread

                  I'm a little late on this but it caught my eye as a new post today. My brother just got results from National Geographic as R1b (M343) His STRs are 393:13, 19:14, 391:11, 439:13, 389-1:13, 389-2:16, 388:12, 390:24, 426:12, 385a:11, 385b:15, 392:13

                  Our paternal lineage is Swedish and I thought we'd show I1a and was surprized at the R1b till I read this:

                  Overall, Hg I has a broad European distribution, from the British Isles east to the Ural Mountains of Russia and south to Anatolia and the Mediterranean Sea, but its strong geographic concentration in northwestern Europe has led Hg I to be nicknamed the "Viking" haplogroup (though some consider R1a to be the only true Viking haplogroup). http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/DK/D...ts-HgI1a.shtml

                  Now I am wondering, is there any R1b testing to determine further Norse ancestory? What would going to Ethnoancestory tell us? Would you recommend it?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by birdy06
                    I'm a little late on this but it caught my eye as a new post today. My brother just got results from National Geographic as R1b (M343) His STRs are 393:13, 19:14, 391:11, 439:13, 389-1:13, 389-2:16, 388:12, 390:24, 426:12, 385a:11, 385b:15, 392:13

                    Our paternal lineage is Swedish and I thought we'd show I1a and was surprized at the R1b till I read this:

                    Overall, Hg I has a broad European distribution, from the British Isles east to the Ural Mountains of Russia and south to Anatolia and the Mediterranean Sea, but its strong geographic concentration in northwestern Europe has led Hg I to be nicknamed the "Viking" haplogroup (though some consider R1a to be the only true Viking haplogroup). http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/DNA/DK/D...ts-HgI1a.shtml

                    Now I am wondering, is there any R1b testing to determine further Norse ancestory? What would going to Ethnoancestory tell us? Would you recommend it?
                    The results you would get from FTDNA's deep clade test for R1b mainly are good if you have Irish or Spanish ancestry and to a certain extent other British Isles ancestry. Ethnoancestry tests for the S-series.

                    The main SNP your brother might test positive for is S21, which is part of the S-series. The current understanding is that S21 probably represents R1b's with deep ancestry (thousands of years ago) from northern Europe, mainly northern Netherlands, northern Germany, Denmark and southern Norway. Not much SNP testing, at least by commercial companies like FTDNA and Ethnoancestry, has been done on Swedish ancestry R1b's, as far as I know.

                    Of course, Denmark and Norway are Scandinavian countries. So it's possible that S21 might be found at significant levels among Swedes. Or perhaps your ancestors from long ago were from Denmark or Norway. So it might be worth testing the S-series. I'm sure Ethnoancestry would be thrilled by the chance to test someone of Swedish ancestry.

                    Probably the best thing right now is to upload your brother's results, for free, from the National Geographic Project to FTDNA and upgrade to 37 or 67 markers. Not much can be said about an R1b with only 12 markers. The best indicator for S21 in the 12 markers your brother has now is 390. More often than not someone who is S21+ will have 390=23. But that's not written in stone. Some who are S21+ have 390=24. If you upgrade to 67 markers, you'll get a good indicator with 492. In over 90% of those who test S21+, 492=13.

                    Mike Maddi

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks Mike! I'll pass on what you shared with my brother. You really do need someone who knows more than you do when you first get into this. I deeply appreciate your help!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by birdy06
                        Thanks Mike! I'll pass on what you shared with my brother. You really do need someone who knows more than you do when you first get into this. I deeply appreciate your help!
                        One thing that I didn't mention is that you should upload your brother's results to www.ysearch.org, if you haven't already. Then you will be able to compare his results to many other R1b's there.

                        When you go to ysearch, take a look at the S21 modal haplotype that someone put up there along with my haplotype in comparison, at http://tinyurl.com/37t2v8

                        I'm S21+ and I match that haplotype perfectly, 26 out of 26 markers. That's saying a lot, since I have some unusual values in general for an R1b. The 26 markers in this S21 haplotype are the key ones, either to determine R1b in general or to show what an S21 is likely to have.

                        So if your brother were to upgrade to 67 markers at FTDNA and compare his haplotype to this one and matched closely (at least 22 or more out of 26, especially 492), then there'd be a good chance he is S21+. However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction.

                        Mike

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Have patience with me... more questions

                          Thanks again Mike. My brother just upgraded and ordered the 67 marker test. Does it makes sense to wait till those results are back or upload him now to Ysearch? I see that the more conclusive information about the S series will be derived with the 67. What do you mean by "However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction." Isn't the haplogroup test a SNP test?

                          I'll keep reading and learning! Thanks for your help.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by birdy06
                            Thanks again Mike. My brother just upgraded and ordered the 67 marker test. Does it makes sense to wait till those results are back or upload him now to Ysearch? I see that the more conclusive information about the S series will be derived with the 67. What do you mean by "However, only a SNP test would confirm that 100% - anything else is just a prediction." Isn't the haplogroup test a SNP test?

                            I'll keep reading and learning! Thanks for your help.
                            You can upload his results now and then update the account when you get the marker results for the upgrade to 67. That will allow you to do searches for close matches in the meantime, while you're waiting the new results.

                            At this point the key marker in predicting S21 is DYS492. Over 90% of SNP-tested S21+'s have 492=13, while the general modal value for R1b is 492=12. So you may want to wait for those new results before doing anything about a SNP test. The reason I say that is because, presently, only Ethnoancestry tests for S21. So testing for S21 means a new DNA sample from your brother to another company.

                            When I mentioned a prediction, I was referring to the practice of FTDNA and genetic genealogists in general of trying to predict haplogroup and subclades based on key marker values. I think that FTDNA can predict haplogroup, based on comparing a haplotype to SNP-tested individuals in their database with similar haplotypes, at over 95% accuracy. When you get to the level of subclades, for instance R1b1c7 or R1b1c9 as opposed to R1b1c, the accuracy isn't so good. So only a SNP test will be 100% certain in establishing the haplogroup and any subclade.

                            Mike

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Why use ethnoancestry?

                              I looked at the ethnoancestry site. They have a Viking test which is for 27 markers. If my brother is getting the 67 marker FTDNA Y test, why should he pay another $250 for that? Won't the FTDNA test give him more information? It doesn't look like ethnoancestry has a database, just testing. What use will it be for my brother to use their products?
                              Thanks once again!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by birdy06
                                I looked at the ethnoancestry site. They have a Viking test which is for 27 markers. If my brother is getting the 67 marker FTDNA Y test, why should he pay another $250 for that? Won't the FTDNA test give him more information? It doesn't look like ethnoancestry has a database, just testing. What use will it be for my brother to use their products?
                                Thanks once again!
                                What you want from Ethnoancestry is not more markers. You want their S-series SNP test. This tests for S21 (R1b1c9), S26 (R1b1c9a), S29 (R1b1c9b) and S28 (R1b1c10). As I mentioned above, EA is the only company that presently tests for these SNPs. They charge $129 for the S-series for new customers; this includes a one-time fee to extract DNA from the sample.

                                EA estimates that 50% of R1b1c's will test negative for all known SNPs (R1b1c1-R1b1c10), meaning the person has no SNPs beyond M269 (SNP which defines R1b1c) or that they have a SNP which has not been discovered yet. EA also estimates that about 20% of R1b1c's will test S21+. So that's a sizeable chunk of people.

                                You are correct. EA doesn't have a database, just testing. (Once you upload your brother's results to ysearch, you'll be in the biggest public database there is anyway.) However, if your brother has 492=13 when he gets his results from the upgrade to 67 markers, there's a good chance that he is S21+. The only way you'll know for sure is if you test the S-series at EA.

                                It is possible that FTDNA will test for the S-series in the near future, sometime later this year, so you may want to wait for that. Of course, knowing that your brother is S21+ or not won't tell you a great deal about your recent ancestry, but it would indicate that your paternal line's deep ancestry (thousands of years ago) is probably from northern Europe, the area from northern Netherlands to southern Norway. If that information is not important to you, then it's not necessary to spend the money for the S-series.

                                Mike

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