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  • R1b

    Hi,

    I'm new to the Y forum, I've been busy up to now checking out my MtDNA wich is U2e.

    We had a male take the test on my Mother's side of the family our results showed R1b. We have the markers m168, m89, m9, m45, m207, m173, m343.

    I understand that this DNA is found in southern England,in parts of Spain and in Ireland 90% of the men share the haplogroup.

    Is there anything else anyone can share with me about this haplogroup or it's markers?

    Thanks Jonann

  • #2
    Here is a set of haplogroup maps that will show you an approximation of the extent of R1b. It's in a lot more places than the ones you named.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Jonann
      We had a male take the test on my Mother's side of the family our results showed R1b. We have the markers m168, m89, m9, m45, m207, m173, m343.
      ...
      Is there anything else anyone can share with me about this haplogroup or it's markers?
      M343 and the like are SNPs. We usually call 'markers' the numerical values (e.g., 12 or 25 or 37) that can be used to determine how close an individual is to others.

      If you went through the Genographic Project, you can create a Family Tree DNA account for free by clicking on the hyperlink called "Learn More" at the bottom of your Genographic page. Once you have a Family Tree DNA account, you can see if any of FTDNA's other customers match your DNA results (and see their ancestral origins), or order further tests, or upload your results to the public Ysearch database. (You can set the name to 'Name Withheld' if you want to remain anonymous.)

      Once you have a Ysearch entry, you can post it here and we can give you a better assessment of what it means by comparing it with others in the database.

      Comment


      • #4
        And you probably want to look at the haplogroup tree that tells you what those SNP test results you quoted mean. You can find the R haplogroup tree at http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

        That page also has a number of links at the bottom which will give you more information. I especially recommend reading these pages:
        http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....g/YCC_R1b.html
        http://home.earthlink.net/~wilsondna...%20Summary.htm
        http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r..._in_europe.htm
        http://www.ethnoancestry.com/EAM269Sept05.htm

        If you have any specific questions after some of this, I'm sure some of us can answer them. Probably the most important thing to understand about R1b is that it used to be regarded as the "plain vanilla" haplogroup for those with European descent. By this I mean that if you were told that your haplogroup is R1b, you could almost say with certainty that you would fall into the R1b1c subclade.

        In the last year or two, some new SNPs have been discovered, several by Ethnoancestry, that make it possible to differentiate R1b into various subclades. Right now we have R1b1c1 through R1b1c10. I've been tested and found that I'm R1b1c9. And there's the likelihood that more SNPs and subclades are waiting to be discovered. That's what gives hope to many people, like Stevo, who is waiting for those new SNPs, so he's not just a "plain vanilla" R1b1c*. With more SNPs and subclades, it will be possible in the future to track deep ancestry to specific times and places in history and pre-history.

        Mike Maddi

        Comment


        • #5
          R1b is R1B1

          Hi again,

          My aunt had this upgraded at some point. I found the info I needed, our Heldman line is R1b1 we have two step mutation matches in England, France Ireland and the United Kingdom. Is this still pretty generic info? As soon as I get more names and dates from my Aunt I'll update our info and join some studies.

          Thanks, Jonann

          PS I did join the y mito search too

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jonann
            Hi again,

            My aunt had this upgraded at some point. I found the info I needed, our Heldman line is R1b1 we have two step mutation matches in England, France Ireland and the United Kingdom. Is this still pretty generic info? As soon as I get more names and dates from my Aunt I'll update our info and join some studies.

            Thanks, Jonann

            PS I did join the y mito search too
            The fact that you have some two step mutation matches in the countries you cited doesn't say much. Usually, unless you know your recent ancestry (last few hundred years) is from the British Isles, you can probably not pay much attention to any matches in England or Ireland. (The FTDNA database is heavily skewed toward British Isles ancestry, just because that is the most common ancestry for Americans.) Heldman for a surname sounds like it may be more likely to be German than English or Irish.

            I'm assuming that you have only 12 markers so far, so no exact or one step matches and only 2 two step matches indicates that your results aren't very common for an R1b. Is your ysearch ID 4KVQ7? If so, I see right away why you have so few matches. First of all, your first marker, 393 is 12, whereas most R1b's have 13 there. Then your third marker, 19, has 15, whereas most R1b's have 14 there. And your 385b marker has a value of 11 and most R1b's have 14 there. (This is a fast mutating marker.)

            Anyway, comparing your 12 markers to everyone on ysearch shows no exact or one step matches, just one two step match and 15 three step matches. You can look at the comparison here - http://www.ysearch.org/research_comp...GDC7F%2C+W3WUH By the way, your two step match is a member of the Sicily Project, of which I'm co-administrator.

            I would recommend that you upgrade to 37 or 67 markers. With a 23 at marker 390, you may also want to consider testing the S-series SNP test at Ethnoancestry, another testing company. It seems that many R1b's who have a 23 at 390 end up testing positive for the S21 SNP, which means they are R1b1c9.

            Mike

            Comment


            • #7
              R1b1

              Thanks Mike!

              What great info! I'm trying to get into the Y German study. I'm also in it on the Mtdna side too. We knew the name was German just found the two step matches in other parts of the world facinating. This Heldman line is my maternal Grandmother's Father's line. We found a direct line male cousin to take the test. My G Grandfather was from Germany, came to the USA as a child.

              What is kind of funny is that in both cases right at first I thought both the Y and the mtdna was sort of general run of the mill generic German. Both sets seem to be a little different though. It is the search that is fun, like going to the flea market. This is just a part of the DNA for my Mother, and is only her maternal Grandparents

              Thanks so much, Jonann

              Comment


              • #8
                I should have mentioned that the S21 SNP is generally regarded as reflecting deep ancestry from the northern Netherlands, northern Germany, and southern Scandinavia (Denmark and southern Norway). This is still preliminary, because Ethnoancestry discovered this SNP less than a year ago.

                There is also the possibility that the even deeper ancestry of R1b1c/S21+ is that it represents those R1b's whose ancestors spent the Ice Age in northern Italy, instead of in Spain. So far Ethnoancestry has test results for S21 on two Italian paternal lines, myself and another person who is in the Italy Project. Both of us have tested positive for S21. There is another Sicily Project member who is awaiting his S21 test result, but I think that he may be negative, based on his haplotype.

                Mike

                Comment


                • #9
                  R1b1

                  hi again,

                  The first test done said the male line was R1b and that roughly 70% of the men in Southern England belong to haplogroup R1b. In parts of spain and Ireland the number exceeds 90%. I wonder if this still holds true since it turned out to be R1b1?

                  Thank, Jonann

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jonann
                    hi again,

                    The first test done said the male line was R1b and that roughly 70% of the men in Southern England belong to haplogroup R1b. In parts of spain and Ireland the number exceeds 90%. I wonder if this still holds true since it turned out to be R1b1?

                    Thank, Jonann
                    I don't know the exact figure, but the overwhelming majority of R1b men of European descent turn out to be R1b1c. The thing to remember is that there is a hierarchy involved in naming haplogroups and subclades. Look at it this way. Consider the haplogroup R as equivalent to "agricultural crops." R1 then would be "fruits" and R2 would be "grains." R1a would be "oranges" and R1b would be "apples." R1b1 would be "MacIntosh" and R1b2 would be "Delicious." R1b1b would be "MacIntosh grown in New York state" and R1b1c would be "MacIntosh grown in Washington state." That's how a haplogroup tree works in describing the relationships found by DNA testing.

                    We have one R1b member of the Sicily Project who had his final SNP test result and was found to be R1b1b. I had never heard of anyone in that subclade before. Doing some research, I found that this is basically only found with significant percentages in Central Asia, which would be the nations between Russia and Afghanistan. There were a couple of studies that found a 1% level in Turkey, 4% level in Pakistan and a 6% level in East Asia. I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how someone with recent ancestry in Sicily is in a haplogroup that is mainly found today at significant levels in Central Asia.

                    Mike
                    Last edited by MMaddi; 15 September 2006, 09:14 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Germany is about 50% R1b1c. It's the biggest single y-haplogroup in Germany.

                      Right now in the Germany Project the modal value at DYS 492 is 12. Since 13 at 492 seems to be a fairly good indicator of S21+ status, it appears that most of the men in the Germany Project may be S21-.

                      Of course, not everyone in that project has 67 markers, and not all of them have had the S series test.

                      Since R1b1c10 (S28+) appears to be a fairly uncommon subclade, it doesn't seem likely that all the men in the Germany Project who have 12 at 492 will be S28+ either.

                      But who knows?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Help clear my confusion

                        Here is my data.
                        I have had 67 markers completed.

                        My ancestry is Scottish. But where before that is the question . The maps and list are very confusing after awhile.
                        Please help an old guy out.


                        M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-

                        R1b1c
                        H

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dcb123
                          Here is my data.
                          I have had 67 markers completed.

                          My ancestry is Scottish. But where before that is the question . The maps and list are very confusing after awhile.
                          Please help an old guy out.


                          M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-

                          R1b1c
                          H
                          Okay. Here is the Y-Haplogroup R Tree from the ISOGG web site. Let's run down it and check your SNP results.

                          R M207 You are M207+, which makes part of R Family.
                          • R* -
                          • R1 M173 You are M173+, which makes you R1.
                          • • R1* -
                          • • R1a SRY10831.2 (SRY1532) You're NOT R1a. That's okay; they're still your genetic cousins.
                          • • • R1a* -
                          • • • R1a1 M17, M198
                          • • • • R1a1* -
                          • • • • R1a1a M56
                          • • • • R1a1b M157
                          • • • • R1a1c M64.2, M87, M204
                          • • R1b M343 You are M343+ or R1b.
                          • • • R1b* -
                          • • • R1b1 P25 You are P25+ or R1b1.
                          • • • • R1b1* -
                          • • • • R1b1a M18
                          • • • • R1b1b M73
                          • • • • R1b1c M269 You are M269+, which makes you R1b1c.
                          • • • • • R1b1c* -
                          • • • • • R1b1c1 M37
                          • • • • • R1b1c2 M65
                          • • • • • R1b1c3 M126
                          • • • • • R1b1c4 M153
                          • • • • • R1b1c5 M160
                          • • • • • R1b1c6 SRY2627 (M167)
                          • • • • • R1b1c7 M222
                          • • • • • R1b1c8 P66
                          • • • • • R1b1c9 S21 (added)
                          • • • • • • R1b1c9* -
                          • • • • • • R1b1c9a L1 (S26) (added)
                          • • • • • • R1b1c9b S29 (added)
                          • • • • • R1b1c10 S28 (added)
                          • • • • R1b1d M335
                          • R2 M124

                          Looks to me (unless I missed something) like you are negative for everything beyond M269 (R1b1c). Of course, FTDNA does not test for R1b1c9, 9a, 9b, and R1b1c10. Currently, only Ethnoancestry tests for those R1b subclades. They do offer those tests (called the S series) as an add-on to FTDNA's Deep R1b-SNP for a greatly reduced price. You might want to consider it.

                          Since you are M269+, you are not R2 (M124+).

                          Hope that helps.

                          Please email your SNP results, along with your name and YSearch ID number, to Dr. John McEwan at [email protected] . Dr. McEwan is assembling R1b data in an effort to parse R1b haplotypes into geographically distinct subclusters. The more data he has, the better and more accurate his subcluster modals.

                          Thanks!
                          Last edited by Stevo; 3 October 2006, 02:00 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Stevo

                            R M207 You are M207+, which makes part of R Family.
                            That should have read as follows:

                            R M207 You are M207+, which makes you part of R Family.

                            I didn't mean to leave you out!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello Stevo,
                              I need to know since I'm R1b of Ireland with markers of 23/11 at DYS390/DYS391. I know that I am Germanic, and I know that I could be either Danish Viking, Norman, Angle, Saxon, or Jute. Is there anyway I could use my STRs to determine which one I am? By the way, my surname is a very rare name in Ireland found mostly in Dublin. Most of the people with my surname 'Downer' have English heritage, but there is an Irish Gaelic 'Downer', which is equivalent to the rare surname O'Dooner. With my STRs at DYS390/DYS391 being 23/11, I would be the English Downer in Ireland, correct? When I searched the Downer's in England in 1881, they mainly lived in Portsmouth, Hampshire, Isle of Wight, and Eastern part of Sussex.. Would my ancestors have originated in this area before they came to Ireland?
                              Last edited by Downer101; 3 October 2006, 06:58 PM.

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