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When did DYS439 change from 10 to 11 and then to 12?

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  • When did DYS439 change from 10 to 11 and then to 12?

    Hi.


    My Y-DNA is R1a1a (etc. etc.), and my DYS439 = 11.


    When comparing the DYS's (?) in the R1a group at ftDNA, I find my first difference at DYS439 ... mine = 11 and most of the others got 10.
    (DYS393, 390 etc. match until 439 ... and then there is a lot more that doesn't match up )

    I've read some place that the mutation rate is about 210 - 212 generations, and if that's correct, it's starting to be a long time ago.
    (210 generations * 25 years pr gen = 5250 years ago ... IF I've understood the theories )


    Questions

    1 - When did DYS439 change from 10 to 11, and when did it change to 12?
    2 - Is DYS439 = 11 rare for R1a1a's?
    3 - Is there any place in my Y-DNA500 results or BAM-file I can check when I got my 11?



    Best Regards
    GG99

  • #2
    Originally posted by GG99 View Post
    Hi.


    My Y-DNA is R1a1a (etc. etc.), and my DYS439 = 11.


    When comparing the DYS's (?) in the R1a group at ftDNA, I find my first difference at DYS439 ... mine = 11 and most of the others got 10.
    (DYS393, 390 etc. match until 439 ... and then there is a lot more that doesn't match up )

    I've read some place that the mutation rate is about 210 - 212 generations, and if that's correct, it's starting to be a long time ago.
    (210 generations * 25 years pr gen = 5250 years ago ... IF I've understood the theories )


    Questions

    1 - When did DYS439 change from 10 to 11, and when did it change to 12?
    2 - Is DYS439 = 11 rare for R1a1a's?
    3 - Is there any place in my Y-DNA500 results or BAM-file I can check when I got my 11?



    Best Regards
    GG99
    You say you are 11 but you are asking when it turned to 12? I am not understanding that part, where do you get 12 from? But as far as when it changed there would be no way of knowing, it could have changed at your generation or hundreds of generations ago or somewhere in between. As far as 11 being rare it doesn't appear to be rare, just not as common as 10. It appears to be 20% for in Haplogroup R1a.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20170809...logy/yfreq.htm

    Comment


    • #3
      I should say there is no easy way of knowing when it occurred. You can compare to your closest BigY matches to see what they are at DYS439. Maybe everyone on your terminal SNP are 11 too, then work your way back to get an estimate.

      Comment


      • #4
        Big Y will not give you any information about when YOUR DYS439 mutated.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
          Big Y will not give you any information about when YOUR DYS439 mutated.
          Thanks

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GG99 View Post
            .
            nist.gov says that commercial kit ladders uses alleles 9 - 14 for DYS439
            https://strbase.nist.gov/str_y439.htm


            Let me rephrase my questions.

            Does anyone know if DYS439 changed from '10' to '11' 7000 years, 5000 years or 500 years ago?
            Does anyone know if DYS439 changed from '11' to '12' 2000 years, 827 years or maybe 230 years ago?

            Comment


            • #7
              It can change at any generation. If you could test your father, grandfather, great-grandfather, you might find it has changed between one of those generations. You can also have back-mutations where it mutates back to a previous value.

              The Y-DNA of many Hampton men descended from a certain immigrant tend to be the same, but my cousin has a mutation in one marker and his 3rd cousin has a mutation in a different marker. Both mutations apparently occurred at some point between them and my 3rd great-grandfather.

              It's random. Average numbers of generations between mutations in various markers have been computed, but they are only averages. I believe I read of a case where a father and son differed on 3 markers.

              Comment


              • #8
                Not only can it change at any generation it can change in either direction.

                The answer to your question is NO!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MoberlyDrake View Post
                  It can change at any generation. If you could test your father, grandfather, great-grandfather, you might find it has changed between one of those generations. You can also have back-mutations where it mutates back to a previous value.

                  The Y-DNA of many Hampton men descended from a certain immigrant tend to be the same, but my cousin has a mutation in one marker and his 3rd cousin has a mutation in a different marker. Both mutations apparently occurred at some point between them and my 3rd great-grandfather.

                  It's random. Average numbers of generations between mutations in various markers have been computed, but they are only averages. I believe I read of a case where a father and son differed on 3 markers.
                  Hi.

                  Thanks for answering.

                  I know DNA can be “flaky and skittish”, but I was hoping DYS439 was one of the more “laid back” versions … more like YCAII and DYS454

                  /GG

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
                    Not only can it change at any generation it can change in either direction.

                    The answer to your question is NO!

                    Are you talking about DYS439 or STR’s in general?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'm talking about any marker, but DYS439 has a higher average mutation rate than many of the other markers.

                      Comment

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