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"Fittest" Y Chromosome Haplogroup

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Kaiser
    Human Brain is Still Evolving - Bruce Lahn
    http://www.hhmi.org/news/pdf/lahn4.pdf
    This is highly debatable based on the people I encounter on a regular bases.

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    • #62
      Where does Hg G fit in all of this??

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      • #63
        Originally posted by jan
        Where does Hg G fit in all of this??
        I don't know, but it seems to me your ancestors must have been pretty fit. You're here, aren't you?

        By the way, we have an entire forum dedicated to y-haplogroup G at dna-forums.org. Scroll down to "Y-DNA Haplogroups" and then click on "G Haplogroup."

        You are welcome there!

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        • #64
          Couch Potato Modal Haplogroup (CPMH)

          Originally posted by Kaiser
          Without trying to stir up a hornet's nest, I propose a hypothesis:

          The haplogroup (or its sub-clade) that has the highest frequency world-wide, harbours individuals who may be classified as FITTEST on the Darwinian scale.

          In other words, people belonging to the largest haplogroup or its sub-clade have survived and multiplied successfully whereas others, that are represented less frequently, have not been able to cope with the rigours of the environment, mate-selection warring, etc.

          A flip of the FTDNA Statistics tab on ySearch reveals the following top 10 Haplogroups on the database SO FAR:

          R1b - 18.6%; I - 8.9%; R1a - 7.7%; K - 6%; E3a - 4.9%; E3b - 4.8%; C3 - 4.7%; O3 - 4.5%; O2 - 4.4%; Q - 4%.

          The caveat to this hypothesis is, of course, that since the database is largely applicable to Europe/North America, where DNA testing has been done more extensively than other parts of the world, it may not be truly representative on a global level. With more widespread testing we might, of course, see different results with high population density areas like South Asia, China and Africa skewing the results in favour of haplogroups like O2/3, E3a, E3b, H, etc.

          My idea to post this thread is to elicit opinions on this Darwinian line of thinking which credits Survival of the Fittest and, to see if it applies to population groups (read haplogroups) too.

          The battle lines are drawn!!!

          PS: I am an R2, so I am not competing in this Fitness Competition.
          I propose we rename the haplogroup (CPMH) meaning Couch Potato Modal Haplogroup. It would be interesting to see their subclades. e.g, R1bI8cheese, R1bIcuate2much, R1bcfoodeatfood, R1b12tuboflard, R1bIamlazy, etc.

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          • #65
            how about R1b1cTV

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Kaiser
              Without trying to stir up a hornet's nest, I propose a hypothesis:

              The haplogroup (or its sub-clade) that has the highest frequency world-wide, harbours individuals who may be classified as FITTEST on the Darwinian scale.

              In other words, people belonging to the largest haplogroup or its sub-clade have survived and multiplied successfully whereas others, that are represented less frequently, have not been able to cope with the rigours of the environment, mate-selection warring, etc.
              Trying to follow this way of thinking:
              I guess the Indian and Chinese are the most successful on the planet.

              What is the most frequent haplogroups of the world?

              It seems a little narrow-minded to think like this: Thomas Malthus wrote in “Essay on the Principle of Population” (1798) at the end of 1700eds that agricultural populations double their size in 25 years. And he probably knew what he was talking about.

              Success is a relative term, agriculture is straining lands and our climate and environment will decide how successful the population “explosion” was in the end. There were clearly some people that became more involved in this agricultural "revolution" than others, like yDNA R1b and mtDNA H. I wonder how that can be explained, since the Genographic project states that these also belonged to the early Europeans of hunter and gatherers. My guess is that they were the ones that came here with agriculture from the Middle East in the first place and much later than those early settlers of Europe. With the new technology and excess of food they multiplied very fast.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Wena
                Trying to follow this way of thinking:
                I guess the Indian and Chinese are the most successful on the planet.

                What is the most frequent haplogroups of the world?

                It seems a little narrow-minded to think like this: Thomas Malthus wrote in “Essay on the Principle of Population” (1798) at the end of 1700eds that agricultural populations double their size in 25 years. And he probably knew what he was talking about.

                Success is a relative term, agriculture is straining lands and our climate and environment will decide how successful the population “explosion” was in the end. There were clearly some people that became more involved in this agricultural "revolution" than others, like yDNA R1b and mtDNA H. I wonder how that can be explained, since the Genographic project states that these also belonged to the early Europeans of hunter and gatherers. My guess is that they were the ones that came here with agriculture from the Middle East in the first place and much later than those early settlers of Europe. With the new technology and excess of food they multiplied very fast.
                And, then there are those that find evidence to support the idea that the culture of the agriculturists spread faster than did their genes.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by fmoakes
                  And, then there are those that find evidence to support the idea that the culture of the agriculturists spread faster than did their genes.
                  Interesting, who have found that evidence?

                  Do you know why are there no interesting debates about the age of R1b and mtDNA H in Europe? There are so many things I find very difficult to understand, for instance:

                  Why does it seem like an insult to say that some present Europeans have come here with agriculture from the east? (What about the old knowledge about Neolithic agricultural expansions – it has become unfashionable it seems?).

                  It is a fact that agriculture came from the middle east and Russia in more recent times than the Palaeolithic, and what is more natural than - the people that had the lifestyle and technology would use it and reproduce more than those that did not have such effective means for food production.

                  Besides that there are many different motifs of R1b and mtDNA H, not all of them can be indigenous in Europe. MtDNA H is a huge haplogroup and it is even found as far east as Baikal near Mongolia, were there also are northern European looking people, tall, blue eyed and blonde etc. even if I do not know if this has something to do with the observed H in those populations. To me it seems like northern Kazakhstan is a place where many newer Europeans might descend from, for instance it is known that the Amazons have old connections to those areas. But God forbid, not the Europeans.

                  There is another contra logic around, that is: People that came very early here (50.000 to 40.000 years before present) adapted to cold after ten thousands of years in extreme European climates, why don’t they find that most Europeans today have these cold adaptations?
                  (I do not believe in the Neanderthal theory because of the lack of DNA matches with modern humans, and because modern humans would naturally adapt in the course of 30.000 –35.000 years of extreme cold). They had the technologies to help themselves for survive.

                  I know of one culture that came to Europe a little later, that had a shorter stay here even if they experienced the LGM, they still did not adapt to the cold by becoming shorter and still had African physique about 20.000 years ago. From what I can remember there are even mtDNA tests of them, the Sunghir people. That was not mtDNA H. “

                  Their sequence is a derivative of so-called "Cambridge" mtDNA sequence, differing from it probably only in one position (G-A transversion in position 16129).” Quote from

                  http://www.rc.ru/~ladygin/sungir/findings/index.php

                  What ancient DNA shows which of the many motifs of R1b and mtDNA H was present here in Europe very early?

                  It must be possible to tell the difference between the mtDNA H and yDNA R1b that came from the East with agriculture and those who were present here very early. How different are these haplogroups from those found in the Middle East, were mtDNA H is very highly frequent and also very diverse?

                  There are several other contra – logic questions regarding these questions, for instance why are people in north-western Europe so very similar genetically, but not similar to the areas where they are supposed to descend… namely Iberia?

                  Coming from Scandinavia I also wonder how it can be that there are no very old distinctive motifs of yDNA R1b and mtDNA H, because these areas that were not very attractive for masses of people and not at all for agriculturists before within the frames of written history?
                  All people that lived here before historical time must have been isolated.
                  It is of course known facts here that the majority population here comes from agriculture cultures, and it is known that types of buildings, agriculture technologies and other cultural phenomena’s have eastern roots. But no one seems to want to have come from there and particularly not that ones genes does. I simply do not get it

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Wena
                    Interesting, who have found that evidence?
                    These folks

                    and these folks

                    and this guy

                    and these too.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Stevo
                      I don't know, but it seems to me your ancestors must have been pretty fit. You're here, aren't you?

                      By the way, we have an entire forum dedicated to y-haplogroup G at dna-forums.org. Scroll down to "Y-DNA Haplogroups" and then click on "G Haplogroup."

                      You are welcome there!

                      It took me forever to have my father's Y-DNA tested, but now that I have the results (R1b1) I am more interested than I thought I would be in this debate.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by F.E.C.
                        I see there is too much hatred and I wonder why it became so evident in the last years. I don't agree with the current US government foreign policy but I ask myself: was Milosevic worse than Saddam?
                        One main difference between these two clowns was that while Saddam was a sadistic and brutal Iraqi nationalist, he had a powerful Christian minister in his cabinet (recall Tariq Aziz, foreign minister). Milosevic, on the other hand, if I recall correctly, showed a blind religious hatred for all muslims in the region and didnt have any representatives of that community in his cabinet.

                        regards,


                        bob

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                        • #72
                          offhand view

                          Actually, I forgot the momentary thought I had on the subject, but at the time I thought it was insightful. Oh well...

                          Although I tend to favor the blond Slavs (especially the girls) in the Balkans, my own mtDNA haplogroup shows that I'm probably more closely related to the Albanians. U5 is strongly repsresented in Albania. But in my case, I assume I am derived from the western Mediterrranean branch of U5, LGM refugia-wise. Anyway, Christianity and Islam have nothing to do with it, since those religions are relatively modern.

                          U5b2 (OOPS! I forgot this is a Y-DNA thread.)
                          Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 11 November 2007, 12:08 AM.

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