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Best test to differentiate 3 perfect Y-DNA67?

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  • Best test to differentiate 3 perfect Y-DNA67?

    I have 3 males (A, B & C), all very similar surnames, all GD=0 or perfect matches at Y-DNA67. Two males (A & B) have known genealogies from the same family and A is 11 and B is 13 generations back to their MRCA. The third male ā€œCā€ does not know his tie to the family, which is at a minimum 6 generations to a possible connection and he would like to know which male branch (A or B) to research for the paper connection.

    Would an upgrade for all 3 males to Y-DNA111 be helpful in this case when they all share the same 67 marker results?

    Dan

  • #2
    Sounds right to me.

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    • #3
      An upgrade to Y111 may not be enough. STR genetic distance values can also be misleading. I've seen people that have a better match with a distant cousin who shares a distant common ancestor than with a closer cousin with a closer common ancestor.

      Perhaps if all 3 were to take a Big Y you could be able to see if he (person C) matches more one than the other in unnamed variants. Even then it isn't a sure thing. For all you know all 3 could be descendants of different sons of the same common ancestor.

      Basically there is no sure way, only maybes. Just possible ways to narrow things down.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by The_Contemplator View Post
        An upgrade to Y111 may not be enough. STR genetic distance values can also be misleading. I've seen people that have a better match with a distant cousin who shares a distant common ancestor than with a closer cousin with a closer common ancestor.

        Perhaps if all 3 were to take a Big Y you could be able to see if he (person C) matches more one than the other in unnamed variants. Even then it isn't a sure thing. For all you know all 3 could be descendants of different sons of the same common ancestor.

        Basically there is no sure way, only maybes. Just possible ways to narrow things down.
        Exactly my thoughts.

        By the way, it was not stated, did they take Family Finder test? Since you do not know when the branching occurred, that might help...


        Mr. W

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dna View Post
          Exactly my thoughts.

          By the way, it was not stated, did they take Family Finder test? Since you do not know when the branching occurred, that might help...


          Mr. W
          Thanks for the thoughts! Plese keep the ideas coming. Dan

          We have not done the FF test as males A and B are 11 and 13 generations back to their MRCA and C is a known 6 back before a possible connection to A & B's line(s). I though the FF was only good for maybe 4th cousins?

          And Yes, A, B and C could "all be descendants of different sons of the same common ancestor." This is why I would like to find a difference between A & B.

          Also, other lines/branches of this same larger family have shown a typical amount of mutations, until males A & B.
          Last edited by dsteeley; 9th November 2017, 03:36 PM.

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          • #6
            Update to this post... All three men A, B and C now have Y-DNA 111 results! DYS712 is the only difference. A=27, B=30 and C=33. I looked up DYS712 and it has a high mutation rate of 0.01877. Is it fare to conclude that C is closer to B than to A?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dsteeley View Post
              Update to this post... All three men A, B and C now have Y-DNA 111 results! DYS712 is the only difference. A=27, B=30 and C=33. I looked up DYS712 and it has a high mutation rate of 0.01877. Is it fare to conclude that C is closer to B than to A?
              It is a reasonable theory, but could still be in error. Deep SNP testing is likely to be needed to determine more.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dsteeley View Post
                Update to this post... All three men A, B and C now have Y-DNA 111 results! DYS712 is the only difference. A=27, B=30 and C=33. I looked up DYS712 and it has a high mutation rate of 0.01877. Is it fare to conclude that C is closer to B than to A?
                To iterate on how this theory could be in error, particularly given the earlier disclosure of "other lines/branches of this same larger family have shown a typical amount of mutations, until males A & B."

                In which scenario it is possible that Lines A & C had a mutation event occur that caused them to diverge away from from the DYS712 reading of 30. So even though it looks like they're GD6 to each other by STRs, they're only "3 STR mutations apart" in reality. In which case A & C are more closely related to each other than they are to B.

                Now whether or not it was a single family line issue, or a "three sons" type event, that's likely to be tricky even with BigY results unless they're also "wildly different" by some means.

                Edit and to use/abuse the Block viewer briefly to demonstrate with a quick cruise through my Haplo-neighborhood:
                My "Terminal SNP Matches" have 8 SNP markers that differ from mine and our mutual terminal baseline. That's fine, I differ from our mutual terminal baseline on 8 markers too.
                Moving back a step further we share 1 SNP marker that differs from everyone else(+9 differences from the parent baseline referenced from here on) in our mutual "parent" group with everyone else to be discussed.

                The "parent" clade has 16 people who are yet to be grouped, the average is 10 differences from the parent baseline.
                Only one other clade has 9 differences from the parent baseline, and it appears to have a lone person in it, he has distant cousins though(they only share a single SNP with him), more on them soon.

                3 branches have 10 differences, one such branch has a cousin line(sharing 4 SNP markers--included in the final count) with 15 SNP differences from the parent clade's baseline. (That group of matches in turn have another more distant cousin, which was the guy in the other clade that reported only 9 SNP differences from the baseline)
                In total there are 3 branches which have 15 SNP differences from our mutual baseline.
                There are other lines which I didn't bother to mention, and will say nothing more than they're all sitting between 11 and 14 SNP markers evidently not common with our mutual MRCA.

                Of course, that level of variety(9 to 15 differing SNPs) was an estimated 1400 to 1800 years in the making. You're probably looking at not much more than 400 years, if that much. SNP markers should not be THAT different if they're from the same line in that time frame, but it is important to keep in mind that mutation isn't something to set a clock to, it's variable, and some lines seem to mutate more often than others, particularly once they get started down that path.
                Last edited by bartarl260; 29th January 2019, 08:50 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by The_Contemplator View Post
                  An upgrade to Y111 may not be enough. STR genetic distance values can also be misleading. I've seen people that have a better match with a distant cousin who shares a distant common ancestor than with a closer cousin with a closer common ancestor.

                  Perhaps if all 3 were to take a Big Y you could be able to see if he (person C) matches more one than the other in unnamed variants. Even then it isn't a sure thing. For all you know all 3 could be descendants of different sons of the same common ancestor.

                  Basically there is no sure way, only maybes. Just possible ways to narrow things down.

                  I had that experience myself that you mentioned,''Ive seen people that have a better match with a distant cousin who shares a distant common ancestor than with a closer cousin with a closer common ancestor. " I have a 108/111 match to my 13th cousin who shares common ancestor John Wells, .b.c. 1492 Staffordshire, England, and a 106/111 with my 8th cousin who shares common ancestor Henry Wells, b. 1672 Berkshire, England d. 1714 Bucks Co. PA.

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