Deep Clade Results I1c

[sterlingnotes]

FTDNA is still calling it I1c... but it has been reclassified as I1b2a by other sites. I expect that FTDNA will soon follow.

[Stevo]

FTDNA is still calling it I1c... but it has been reclassified as I1b2a by other sites. I expect that FTDNA will soon follow.

Thanks, sterlingnotes.

That clears things up.

So, I1c=the new I1b2a, and it may have been brought to the British Isles by the Anglo-Saxons and/or the later Viking invaders/colonists.

[Stevo]

How rare is I1c (I1b2a)? It seems a number of folks who post here are I1cs, so it can't be all that rare.

Is it fairly well represented in Northern Europe?

[Merilinja]

I1b2a-Cont2 origin?

My (Ysearch: VK39E Meriläinen) haplogroup seem to be: I1b2a-Cont2 based on www.northwestanalysis.net. Who knows about this group? When this group people went to British Isles? Year 100? Year 500? Year 1066? Who were this people?

It looks like origin is near German and France border? Who can tell more? REO results shows British Isles is near origin after Britis Isles comes Germany.. These people/some of them were Franks? Anyone other close to my results? I know few and they are from British Isles origin 24/25 and 25/25 and 29/37 and 30/37 with my ydna results.

[Stevo]

My (Ysearch: VK39E Meriläinen) haplogroup seem to be: I1b2a-Cont2 based on www.northwestanalysis.net. Who knows about this group? When this group people went to British Isles? Year 100? Year 500? Year 1066? Who were this people?

It looks like origin is near German and France border? Who can tell more? REO results shows British Isles is near origin after Britis Isles comes Germany.. These people/some of them were Franks? Anyone other close to my results? I know few and they are from British Isles origin 24/25 and 25/25 and 29/37 and 30/37 with my ydna results.

I1b2a-Cont (Continental), (old) I1c, is the main variety of haplogroup I1b2a. The area of its most dense presence is Northwest Germany and Netherlands, then up into Denmark, and even Southern Sweden and Norway. A good amount is also found in the British Isles, perhaps brought there by the Germanic and Scandinavian invader/immigrants in the historic era. I1b12a-Cont tends to have the high repeat values at DYS389i,ii, it is modal 23 at DYS390; 14 at DYS437; 10 at DYS445; and 21 at C4. There are two varieties of Continental I1b2a. With the new SNPs downstream of M223+ which defines I1b2a --- P78, P95, M379 --- these parts of Continental I1b2a could be connected with separate SNPs, but more testing is needed. Recentl testing did find one Continental I1b2a haplotype as P78+.

If you are Finnish, it seems to me the chances are good you acquired your Y-DNA from a Swedish or Norwegian paternal ancestor.

The presence of I1b2a-Cont (old I1c) on the continent can be explained by the movement of Scandinavian peoples that started early in the historical period but that really accelerated during the Voelkerwanderung that began in the 3rd century A.D. and contributed to the eventual collapse of the western Roman Empire. There were whole tribes that migrated south and left Scandinavia for good.

I1b2a, as Nordtvedt says above, was probably carried to Britain by those tribes known collectively as the Anglo-Saxons and perhaps by the later Vikings.

While matches of 24/25 and 25/25 can be significant, I don't think 29/37 or 30/37 are.

[Merilinja]

I1b2a-Cont2 origin..??

Thanks Stevo!

Yes I´m Finnish and probably family Meriläinen has been here about 400-500 years, but before that nobody knows.. Familystory tells my family has came to Finland about 450 years ago by boat or ship. I havent found so far any close results in Finland, Sweden or Norway, all closest results are from England and British Isles. Even Switzerland is more close than Sweden and Norway based on RAO results! And this only 25/25 was with surename Waddy most likely his origin was in British Isles 1000-500 years ago.. But how big was this I1b2a-Cont2 population 500 or 1000 or 1500 years ago and when this haplogroup I1b2a-Cont2 was "born"? And where? I think near Germany, France and Switzerland more than anywhere in Scandinavia.

RAO:
25 Marker Y-DNA Matches (Two Step Mutations)
England 2
Ireland 1
United Kingdom 1
--------------------------
3 Step Mutations
British Isles 2
England 4
France 1
Germany 2
Ireland 2
Northern Ireland 1
Sweden 1
Switzerland 2
United Kingdom 3

[Stevo]

Well, anything is possible, but Scandinavia produced a lot of folk who began to move down into continental Europe in the early days of what some now call the "Common Era." It is hard to keep track of them because the tribes changed names and formed new confederations.

The Goths came out of southern Sweden and the island of Gotland, the Vandals came from Vendel (or Wendel) in Sweden, the Burgundians came from Bornholm (then called Borgundarholm), and the Angles came from southern Jutland. Those are just a few examples. There were many others. The tribes that populated northwestern Germany had come out of Scandinavia earlier.

So, it is not surprising that you, a Finn, find yourself matching the Y-DNA of folks spread out mostly along the path those tribes took on their collision course with the Romans.

[Stevo]

Merilinja -

Did you see the earlier posts in this thread about FTDNA's I1c Project?

Here's part of one of them:

If you mean Grant South, here's his email address: [email protected]. Tell him you want to join the I1c group and he'll walk you through it. He'll also post your results on the project's web site. BTW this is a FamilyTreeDNA Project group.

Maybe you should consider emailing Mr. South and joining the I1c Project. You could probably find out a lot that way.

[Stevo]

???

Where have all you I1c folks gone?

This was an interesting discussion and caused me to learn a lot.

I would like to know if you have found out any more.

It's a shame that some people show up and post here a few times and then seem to disappear.

I'm curious about something.

You say you found out you were I1c via a deep clade test.

What did your initial STR results say? Just plain I?

[Merilinja]

I1c and I1b2a-Cont2..

Stevo and others!

I´m still reading and waiting new information about this I1c and I1b2a-Cont2. In www.Ysearch.org and FTDNA should be more accurate information like in this www.northwestanalysis.net, there I found out my deep clade was this continental 2, (have to open Excel sheet). This I1c group is so big and some of this group are very very ancient relatives to me. I´m interested relatives time scale years years A.D. 100-1600. This Y-Clan page is interesting: http://www.familytreedna.com/(ctqbq1eccjyo12nrax2xkp3m)/public/I1c-Y-Clan/index.aspx but now seems this Viking population is very popular everywhere.. Too popular I think.. There are many interesting information, that I agree but I would like to join I1b2a-Cont2 group, but there are still not that project...

This time scale is important, when we are speaking saxons, franks, vikings etc. I told that Waddy is 25/25 with me, so it´s close but this same Waddy is also 29/37, so it´s not close? Different markers are mutating faster, in FamilytreeDna or Ysearch.org should be calculators what are calculating time scale. So this 25/25 and 29/37 is how old relative 97 % accuracy is enough to me, 500 years, 800, 1000? How about how is 24/25 and 30/37 like one surename Duke to me?? And how about 24/25 and 32/37 how near or far relative years?

I have thougt based on many close surenames: Waddy (Weddington?) 25/25, Duke (LeDuc?) 24/25, Orman (Ormond?) (Genetic distance 2), Crockett (De Crocketagne?) 23/25, Harrington (De haverington?) 12/12, Bee (Bee or Bay?) 12/12, Linton 12/12, that my dna arrived from continent to England about years 400-1066 by saxons, franks or normans. Based on 22/25 Deeken (Germany), 22/25 Lampert (Swiss origin year A.D. 1300), Tibbels 12/12, Stepe 22/25 (Germany?? origin?).. Canon 21/25 etc. I have thougt that my dna origin is maybe in Lothringen (Lorrain) now in France (before Germany and France..) about years 100-1000 A.D. and some then some of these people went to Norhern France and then to England.. I would like to get information and opinions I´m wrong or what is the origin of I1b2a-Cont2??

I think in England near town Liverpool Lincoln area and Yorkshire are close dna with me.. I have used www.familysearch.org, www.viamichelin.com and many other pages to make connection with familynames and locations, but still my origin is mystery but I think I have a clue on that...

Any opinions? Thank you!

Merilinja
VK39E in Ysearch.org

[lgmayka]

Another reference is this mailing list:

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/DNA/GENEALOGY-DNA.html

You can search its archives, or even join it and ask a question.

With respect to the generational meaning of matches such as 25/25, here is FTDNA's view:

http://www.ftdna.com/faq2.html

Note, however, that many other sources consider FTDNA's table "optimistic"--i.e., they say that FTDNA's assumed mutation rate is much higher than the real mutation rate. Here is a more generic generational calculator that lets you specify your own mutation rate assumption:

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html

[Stevo]

Merilinja -

Good to see you posting here again!

That is some interesting information you have found.

It seems the more we find out, the more questions we have. I1c - or whatever they're calling it now - is extremely interesting.

Is it really considered a rare haplogroup, as one of the earlier posters said, or is it fairly well represented in Europe?

Igmayka -

Thanks for those links and the rest of the info.

[Merilinja]

DNA Results Comparison

Thanks lgmayka!

This http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html comparasion is nice and shows how big difference there can be with different mutation rates and databases.. When 25/25 means relation (95%) is between 350-780 years and 30/37 between 800-1680 years (95%) with differnet mutation rates and years generation and probabilitys there is very nice to think what is right and what is wrong.. If I was using calculator correctly.. I hope..

I hope tools and information will someday be closer than now.. Interesting to think...

Another reference is this mailing list:

http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/DNA/GENEALOGY-DNA.html

You can search its archives, or even join it and ask a question.

With respect to the generational meaning of matches such as 25/25, here is FTDNA's view:

http://www.ftdna.com/faq2.html

Note, however, that many other sources consider FTDNA's table "optimistic"--i.e., they say that FTDNA's assumed mutation rate is much higher than the real mutation rate. Here is a more generic generational calculator that lets you specify your own mutation rate assumption:

http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility.html

[DHD]

I1c

I also was recently reclassified as I1c (previously I.) I am very new to this and am still trying to wade through the terminology. The DNA I submitted was from my brother to ascertain our Holland origins - Holland as in surname, not country. It is the one line of my genealogy that I have been unable to make much progress on. My ancestor was from Co. Monaghan Ireland. The one 12-marker match that was found had an email address that bounced - quite frustrating. If anyone can explain the haplogroup change process to me in fairly simple terms, I'd appreciate it. Also, what is SNP ? Diane

[sterlingnotes]

Where have all you I1c folks gone?

This was an interesting discussion and caused me to learn a lot.

I would like to know if you have found out any more.

It's a shame that some people show up and post here a few times and then seem to disappear.

I'm curious about something.

You say you found out you were I1c via a deep clade test.

What did your initial STR results say? Just plain I?

I think mine was originally predicted by FTDNA as I but was told that I needed an SNP test to confirm it. After that it was listed as haplogroup I. Once they offered the Deep HapI test I took that too and was reclassified as I1c.