Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

NPEs in an Irish Family

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • NPEs in an Irish Family

    I am the administrator of the Barry YDNA Surname Project and we have some interesting results, with implications for assessing Irish family histories. I'd welcome your thoughts.

    The surname is of Anglo-Norman (or Flemish)-Irish origin and first appears in Ireland at the time of the 12th century Cambro-Norman invasion. It is well documented in books and academic studies and is associated especially with County Cork.

    We have results available for a total of 84 men with the Barry surname, a close variant, or a near certainty of an unidentified Barry paternal ancestor. Most of these men, I believe, learned through family lore that they were descended from the original, 12th century Barry family in Ireland. However the YDNA test results show a very different story!

    The men are divided among three major haplogroups, E (1 man), I (13 men) and R (70 men). They also appear to fall into at least 20 different subclades, which precludes common ancestroy among these groupings within several thousand years. So it is clear that the majority are not paternally related to each other, and so most cannot be related to the original Anglo-Norman/Flemish invaders.

    There are three subgroups of particular interest:

    R1b-Z49: 21 men, 10 of whom have a rare value for one marker, DYS388=11. Most can trace their ancestry to Ireland and several to areas of County Cork where the Barrys had castles. Their Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor ranges from 200-800 years, consistent with the time that the Barry surname has been in Ireland.

    R1b-L159: 9 men, 3 of whom are from the same family in County Limerick. The others can only trace their ancestry back to early America.

    I-M253-uN: 4 men, 3 from one family branch in America and the fourth a very distant (600+ years) match. One of these men is linked to some online family trees that indicate direct descent from the original Barry family through a subsidiary line in Dublin. The link is based on a family bible, which on the surface appears to be plausible. However, some of the underlying historical records are questionable. One, for example, says that in this line "consanguinity is generally assumed" while another refers to a paternal ancestor as "probably" the father of his son.

    If we look at these three groups as the best candidates for direct descent from the original family, there are some implications about rates of non-paternal events.

    The 21-member group gives the lowest rate, on average some 3-5% per generation.

    The 9-member group would imply 6-8%

    The 4-member group would imply 9-10%

    The lower rate would appear on the surface to be more plausible, but the others can't be excluded. There are several reasons why significant NPE rates might have occurred:

    There are the discontinuities that could occur in any family, including undocumented adoptions, legal surname changes, assignment of maternal surnames to children of single mothers or misattributed paternity.

    In addition, there are some factors unique to Ireland. Periodic clan wars, invasions and economic disasters may be significant contributors. The diversity of paternal lines could also be due in part to some peculiar characteristics of Medieval Irish families, such as mothers assigning fathers’ names to their children or individuals changing their surnames for social or political reasons. In addition, the fostering of children was common during that period, as was a “general atmosphere of sexual permissiveness.” See K. W. Nicholls, Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland (Dublin, Lilliput Press, 2003), pp. 86-91. Later, for example during the famine years, children whose parents were deceased may have been taken into Barry families who gave them that name or given the name arbitrarily by ecclesiastical authorities or the directors of workhouses. Taken together, these factors help to explain why there are so many paternal lineages represented in the Barry project.

    At the moment, I am inclined to view the 21-member group as the best candidate for direct descent from the original Barry family, with the 4-member I-1 group as a possible but less likely, choice. The 9-member Limerick group is a good candidate to be related to another Barry lineage entirely, the Gaelic Irish O'Baire that thrived near the Cork-Limerick border.

    We are currently raising funds to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, who died in 1773. (Shameless marketing promotion--we would love some contributions at: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/) Those results may illuminate, or further complicate, the situation.

    I'd be interested to hear in particular from people who are researching other Irish families and other surname project administrators. Are those NPE rates plausible for an Irish family? Do you agree that the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent? What other lines of inquiry might you suggest?

    Thanks,

    Jim Barry

  • #2
    You asked if the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent. My first thought was to see if there was an example of a Barry from here in Wales, from where the Barrys later went to Ireland. There is one, and it's an I-M253. So my first guess would be, no, that big group were Irishmen, and the few I-M253s were the Anglo-Normans. First guess, not an argument.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
      I am the administrator of the Barry YDNA Surname Project and we have some interesting results, with implications for assessing Irish family histories. I'd welcome your thoughts.

      The surname is of Anglo-Norman (or Flemish)-Irish origin and first appears in Ireland at the time of the 12th century Cambro-Norman invasion. It is well documented in books and academic studies and is associated especially with County Cork.

      We have results available for a total of 84 men with the Barry surname, a close variant, or a near certainty of an unidentified Barry paternal ancestor. Most of these men, I believe, learned through family lore that they were descended from the original, 12th century Barry family in Ireland. However the YDNA test results show a very different story!

      The men are divided among three major haplogroups, E (1 man), I (13 men) and R (70 men). They also appear to fall into at least 20 different subclades, which precludes common ancestroy among these groupings within several thousand years. So it is clear that the majority are not paternally related to each other, and so most cannot be related to the original Anglo-Norman/Flemish invaders.

      There are three subgroups of particular interest:

      R1b-Z49: 21 men, 10 of whom have a rare value for one marker, DYS388=11. Most can trace their ancestry to Ireland and several to areas of County Cork where the Barrys had castles. Their Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor ranges from 200-800 years, consistent with the time that the Barry surname has been in Ireland.

      R1b-L159: 9 men, 3 of whom are from the same family in County Limerick. The others can only trace their ancestry back to early America.

      I-M253-uN: 4 men, 3 from one family branch in America and the fourth a very distant (600+ years) match. One of these men is linked to some online family trees that indicate direct descent from the original Barry family through a subsidiary line in Dublin. The link is based on a family bible, which on the surface appears to be plausible. However, some of the underlying historical records are questionable. One, for example, says that in this line "consanguinity is generally assumed" while another refers to a paternal ancestor as "probably" the father of his son.

      If we look at these three groups as the best candidates for direct descent from the original family, there are some implications about rates of non-paternal events.

      The 21-member group gives the lowest rate, on average some 3-5% per generation.

      The 9-member group would imply 6-8%

      The 4-member group would imply 9-10%

      The lower rate would appear on the surface to be more plausible, but the others can't be excluded. There are several reasons why significant NPE rates might have occurred:

      There are the discontinuities that could occur in any family, including undocumented adoptions, legal surname changes, assignment of maternal surnames to children of single mothers or misattributed paternity.

      In addition, there are some factors unique to Ireland. Periodic clan wars, invasions and economic disasters may be significant contributors. The diversity of paternal lines could also be due in part to some peculiar characteristics of Medieval Irish families, such as mothers assigning fathers’ names to their children or individuals changing their surnames for social or political reasons. In addition, the fostering of children was common during that period, as was a “general atmosphere of sexual permissiveness.” See K. W. Nicholls, Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland (Dublin, Lilliput Press, 2003), pp. 86-91. Later, for example during the famine years, children whose parents were deceased may have been taken into Barry families who gave them that name or given the name arbitrarily by ecclesiastical authorities or the directors of workhouses. Taken together, these factors help to explain why there are so many paternal lineages represented in the Barry project.

      At the moment, I am inclined to view the 21-member group as the best candidate for direct descent from the original Barry family, with the 4-member I-1 group as a possible but less likely, choice. The 9-member Limerick group is a good candidate to be related to another Barry lineage entirely, the Gaelic Irish O'Baire that thrived near the Cork-Limerick border.

      We are currently raising funds to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, who died in 1773. (Shameless marketing promotion--we would love some contributions at: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/) Those results may illuminate, or further complicate, the situation.

      I'd be interested to hear in particular from people who are researching other Irish families and other surname project administrators. Are those NPE rates plausible for an Irish family? Do you agree that the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent? What other lines of inquiry might you suggest?

      Thanks,

      Jim Barry
      Al of the SNPs originated before surnames so why are they NPEs? How do you determine who was the first man named Barry and which haplogroup he belonged to?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        Al of the SNPs originated before surnames so why are they NPEs? How do you determine who was the first man named Barry and which haplogroup he belonged to?
        The first man to have the surname is identified in chronicles of Geraldis Cambrensis, himself a member of the family. His haplogroup is unknown.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by J Honeychuck View Post
          You asked if the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent. My first thought was to see if there was an example of a Barry from here in Wales, from where the Barrys later went to Ireland. There is one, and it's an I-M253. So my first guess would be, no, that big group were Irishmen, and the few I-M253s were the Anglo-Normans. First guess, not an argument.
          Yes, that man is a member of the project. He is the fourth man in the 4-person group in which one man may have documented direct descent. The Welsh origin is not documented. The original Barry family was granted land in Wales by William, but the latest research suggests that it was actually Flemish in origin, from the village of Barri, near Tournai. (William the Conqueror's wife, Matilda, was the daughter of the Count of Flanders and other Flemish knights accompanied him to England.) The Z49 subclade is consistent with that, but far from conclusive. The I-M253 subclade is also a possibility and is found in Normandy and Flanders as well.

          Comment


          • #6
            Another Possibility

            There is another possible explanation for the genetic diversity and that is that the Barry families in 12th century Ireland and thereafter had more than one progenitor. Because Barry is a locational surname, deriving from Barry Island, Wales or Barri, Flanders, it is possible that men from more than one paternal lineage took it to Ireland. Only those who bore titles, however, would have been documented in historical works and pedigrees, while the records of the other families would have been lost, if indeed they ever existed.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
              There is another possible explanation for the genetic diversity and that is that the Barry families in 12th century Ireland and thereafter had more than one progenitor. Because Barry is a locational surname, deriving from Barry Island, Wales or Barri, Flanders, it is possible that men from more than one paternal lineage took it to Ireland. Only those who bore titles, however, would have been documented in historical works and pedigrees, while the records of the other families would have been lost, if indeed they ever existed.
              Barry is the anglicized form of O'Baire and O'Beargha. Barry is also a popular first name in Ireland and means spear like.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                Barry is the anglicized form of O'Baire and O'Beargha. Barry is also a popular first name in Ireland and means spear like.
                Yes, and some of the men in the project use the variant Berry, especially those from the American South. But Berry can also be a different surname of English origin.

                Thanks!

                Comment


                • #9
                  There are nine men at ysearch with the surname I have and they belong in five different subgroups of R1b. I examined all of them. One of them has the M222 signature but the name is not connected historically to the Ui Neill.
                  I think that if there were 90 men tested of the name then there would be a lot more haplogroups involved.
                  One can enter any Irish name at ysearch.org and will see that there aren't any that belong to one single subgroup.I don't think that one can call them NPEs as they all belong to different clans. Surnames originally came from first names and the name Mahon is a prime example.

                  This was posted on another forum and I think it should be read by everyone who has taken a dna test.
                  https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/debun...anding-testing
                  Last edited by 1798; 26 July 2014, 11:53 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Link Broken

                    1798: Could you post that link again? It didn't work for me.

                    Thanks!

                    I took a look at 8 other projects for Anglo-Norman Irish surnames, including 4 that are supposed to have descended from one individual. All showed diversity similar to that in the Barry project.

                    Jim

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
                      1798: Could you post that link again? It didn't work for me.

                      Thanks!

                      I took a look at 8 other projects for Anglo-Norman Irish surnames, including 4 that are supposed to have descended from one individual. All showed diversity similar to that in the Barry project.

                      Jim
                      If I could find the grave of one of the ancestors that I was trying to link up with and dna test his remains how I would I be sure that he wasn't the result of an NPE?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        NPEs

                        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                        If I could find the grave of one of the ancestors that I was trying to link up with and dna test his remains how I would I be sure that he wasn't the result of an NPE?
                        You couldn't! That means that our test of the 6th Earl of Barrymore is only one step. The hope is that we will be able eventually to test several sets of remains, as well as more men who have documented pedigrees.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
                          You couldn't! That means that our test of the 6th Earl of Barrymore is only one step. The hope is that we will be able eventually to test several sets of remains, as well as more men who have documented pedigrees.
                          "An ounce of pluck is worth more than a ton of luck" so I wish you well in your venture.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Study on NPEs in Irish Families

                            Yesterday I came across a study on patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, http://генофонд.рф/wp.../uploads/201...hromosome2.pdf. The authors calculated an NPE rate of 1.6% per generation for one surname, O'Sullivan, which they identified as one of the more stable. Using their data, and that from several FTDNA surname projects, I estimate the average rate for 16 Irish surnames at 3.6% per generation (95% CI 1.9-5.3). This is very, very rough back of the envelope stuff, but I think it's plausible.

                            The Irish adopted surnames earlier than most of Europe and the calculations in the study I cited are based on 35 generations, a much longer period than is covered other studies of NPE rates such as Sykes. In addition to marital infidelity, there are many other reasons for apparent disconnects between surnames and paternal lineage, some of them peculiar to Irish culture. These include multiple surname origins (Barry can be Anglo-Norman, Gaelic Irish or English/French); undocumented adoptions, especially during times of turmoil; arbitrary assignment of surnames to foundlings; use of stepparents' names in blended families; surname changes on immigration and use of aliases for various reasons. In addition, in some Irish clans followers adopted the name of the clan chief, whether related or not. Also, many large Irish septs had names for specific branches ("agnomena"). These were often based on physical characteristics, locations or occupations and might occur in several surname groups.

                            For all of these reasons, one might expect the results of long-term NPE estimates for Irish families to be higher than those for for other studies that typically look at surnames and lineage in a specific location over a period of a few hundred years. If you want the details, email me at [email protected].

                            Jim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by jbarry6899 View Post
                              Yesterday I came across a study on patrilineal ancestry in Irish surnames, http://генофонд.рф/wp.../uploads/201...hromosome2.pdf. The authors calculated an NPE rate of 1.6% per generation for one surname, O'Sullivan, which they identified as one of the more stable. Using their data, and that from several FTDNA surname projects, I estimate the average rate for 16 Irish surnames at 3.6% per generation (95% CI 1.9-5.3). This is very, very rough back of the envelope stuff, but I think it's plausible.

                              The Irish adopted surnames earlier than most of Europe and the calculations in the study I cited are based on 35 generations, a much longer period than is covered other studies of NPE rates such as Sykes. In addition to marital infidelity, there are many other reasons for apparent disconnects between surnames and paternal lineage, some of them peculiar to Irish culture. These include multiple surname origins (Barry can be Anglo-Norman, Gaelic Irish or English/French); undocumented adoptions, especially during times of turmoil; arbitrary assignment of surnames to foundlings; use of stepparents' names in blended families; surname changes on immigration and use of aliases for various reasons. In addition, in some Irish clans followers adopted the name of the clan chief, whether related or not. Also, many large Irish septs had names for specific branches ("agnomena"). These were often based on physical characteristics, locations or occupations and might occur in several surname groups.

                              For all of these reasons, one might expect the results of long-term NPE estimates for Irish families to be higher than those for for other studies that typically look at surnames and lineage in a specific location over a period of a few hundred years. If you want the details, email me at [email protected].

                              Jim
                              Not about Ireland..., but when I am discussing this topic with my family I try to use the term NPE only to describe the false parenthood events (i.e. the father thinks that the child is genetically his). Otherwise I try to stick to surname change or sometimes surname discontinuity . It creates easier conversations

                              Mr. W.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X