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I am the administrator of the Barry YDNA Surname Project and we have some interesting results, with implications for assessing Irish family histories. I'd welcome your thoughts.
The surname is of Anglo-Norman (or Flemish)-Irish origin and first appears in Ireland at the time of the 12th century Cambro-Norman invasion. It is well documented in books and academic studies and is associated especially with County Cork.
We have results available for a total of 84 men with the Barry surname, a close variant, or a near certainty of an unidentified Barry paternal ancestor. Most of these men, I believe, learned through family lore that they were descended from the original, 12th century Barry family in Ireland. However the YDNA test results show a very different story!
The men are divided among three major haplogroups, E (1 man), I (13 men) and R (70 men). They also appear to fall into at least 20 different subclades, which precludes common ancestroy among these groupings within several thousand years. So it is clear that the majority are not paternally related to each other, and so most cannot be related to the original Anglo-Norman/Flemish invaders.
There are three subgroups of particular interest:
R1b-Z49: 21 men, 10 of whom have a rare value for one marker, DYS388=11. Most can trace their ancestry to Ireland and several to areas of County Cork where the Barrys had castles. Their Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor ranges from 200-800 years, consistent with the time that the Barry surname has been in Ireland.
R1b-L159: 9 men, 3 of whom are from the same family in County Limerick. The others can only trace their ancestry back to early America.
I-M253-uN: 4 men, 3 from one family branch in America and the fourth a very distant (600+ years) match. One of these men is linked to some online family trees that indicate direct descent from the original Barry family through a subsidiary line in Dublin. The link is based on a family bible, which on the surface appears to be plausible. However, some of the underlying historical records are questionable. One, for example, says that in this line "consanguinity is generally assumed" while another refers to a paternal ancestor as "probably" the father of his son.
If we look at these three groups as the best candidates for direct descent from the original family, there are some implications about rates of non-paternal events.
The 21-member group gives the lowest rate, on average some 3-5% per generation.
The 9-member group would imply 6-8%
The 4-member group would imply 9-10%
The lower rate would appear on the surface to be more plausible, but the others can't be excluded. There are several reasons why significant NPE rates might have occurred:
There are the discontinuities that could occur in any family, including undocumented adoptions, legal surname changes, assignment of maternal surnames to children of single mothers or misattributed paternity.
In addition, there are some factors unique to Ireland. Periodic clan wars, invasions and economic disasters may be significant contributors. The diversity of paternal lines could also be due in part to some peculiar characteristics of Medieval Irish families, such as mothers assigning fathers’ names to their children or individuals changing their surnames for social or political reasons. In addition, the fostering of children was common during that period, as was a “general atmosphere of sexual permissiveness.” See K. W. Nicholls, Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland (Dublin, Lilliput Press, 2003), pp. 86-91. Later, for example during the famine years, children whose parents were deceased may have been taken into Barry families who gave them that name or given the name arbitrarily by ecclesiastical authorities or the directors of workhouses. Taken together, these factors help to explain why there are so many paternal lineages represented in the Barry project.
At the moment, I am inclined to view the 21-member group as the best candidate for direct descent from the original Barry family, with the 4-member I-1 group as a possible but less likely, choice. The 9-member Limerick group is a good candidate to be related to another Barry lineage entirely, the Gaelic Irish O'Baire that thrived near the Cork-Limerick border.
We are currently raising funds to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, who died in 1773. (Shameless marketing promotion--we would love some contributions at: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/) Those results may illuminate, or further complicate, the situation.
I'd be interested to hear in particular from people who are researching other Irish families and other surname project administrators. Are those NPE rates plausible for an Irish family? Do you agree that the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent? What other lines of inquiry might you suggest?
Thanks,
Jim Barry
The surname is of Anglo-Norman (or Flemish)-Irish origin and first appears in Ireland at the time of the 12th century Cambro-Norman invasion. It is well documented in books and academic studies and is associated especially with County Cork.
We have results available for a total of 84 men with the Barry surname, a close variant, or a near certainty of an unidentified Barry paternal ancestor. Most of these men, I believe, learned through family lore that they were descended from the original, 12th century Barry family in Ireland. However the YDNA test results show a very different story!
The men are divided among three major haplogroups, E (1 man), I (13 men) and R (70 men). They also appear to fall into at least 20 different subclades, which precludes common ancestroy among these groupings within several thousand years. So it is clear that the majority are not paternally related to each other, and so most cannot be related to the original Anglo-Norman/Flemish invaders.
There are three subgroups of particular interest:
R1b-Z49: 21 men, 10 of whom have a rare value for one marker, DYS388=11. Most can trace their ancestry to Ireland and several to areas of County Cork where the Barrys had castles. Their Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor ranges from 200-800 years, consistent with the time that the Barry surname has been in Ireland.
R1b-L159: 9 men, 3 of whom are from the same family in County Limerick. The others can only trace their ancestry back to early America.
I-M253-uN: 4 men, 3 from one family branch in America and the fourth a very distant (600+ years) match. One of these men is linked to some online family trees that indicate direct descent from the original Barry family through a subsidiary line in Dublin. The link is based on a family bible, which on the surface appears to be plausible. However, some of the underlying historical records are questionable. One, for example, says that in this line "consanguinity is generally assumed" while another refers to a paternal ancestor as "probably" the father of his son.
If we look at these three groups as the best candidates for direct descent from the original family, there are some implications about rates of non-paternal events.
The 21-member group gives the lowest rate, on average some 3-5% per generation.
The 9-member group would imply 6-8%
The 4-member group would imply 9-10%
The lower rate would appear on the surface to be more plausible, but the others can't be excluded. There are several reasons why significant NPE rates might have occurred:
There are the discontinuities that could occur in any family, including undocumented adoptions, legal surname changes, assignment of maternal surnames to children of single mothers or misattributed paternity.
In addition, there are some factors unique to Ireland. Periodic clan wars, invasions and economic disasters may be significant contributors. The diversity of paternal lines could also be due in part to some peculiar characteristics of Medieval Irish families, such as mothers assigning fathers’ names to their children or individuals changing their surnames for social or political reasons. In addition, the fostering of children was common during that period, as was a “general atmosphere of sexual permissiveness.” See K. W. Nicholls, Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland (Dublin, Lilliput Press, 2003), pp. 86-91. Later, for example during the famine years, children whose parents were deceased may have been taken into Barry families who gave them that name or given the name arbitrarily by ecclesiastical authorities or the directors of workhouses. Taken together, these factors help to explain why there are so many paternal lineages represented in the Barry project.
At the moment, I am inclined to view the 21-member group as the best candidate for direct descent from the original Barry family, with the 4-member I-1 group as a possible but less likely, choice. The 9-member Limerick group is a good candidate to be related to another Barry lineage entirely, the Gaelic Irish O'Baire that thrived near the Cork-Limerick border.
We are currently raising funds to test the remains of Richard Barry, 6th Earl of Barrymore, who died in 1773. (Shameless marketing promotion--we would love some contributions at: https://sites.google.com/site/barrymorednaproject/) Those results may illuminate, or further complicate, the situation.
I'd be interested to hear in particular from people who are researching other Irish families and other surname project administrators. Are those NPE rates plausible for an Irish family? Do you agree that the largest group is the most likely candidate for direct descent? What other lines of inquiry might you suggest?
Thanks,
Jim Barry
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