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Where is DF27 or R1b1a2a1a2a from?

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  • #31
    I am an inferred DF27 too and as everybody I noticed the geographical spread of the group.
    Regarding its origin, isn't it possible to correlate it with other genetic data, like maternal Haplogroup, autosomal data, Neanderthal%, even some rare phenotypes?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Ric View Post
      I am an inferred DF27 too and as everybody I noticed the geographical spread of the group.
      Regarding its origin, isn't it possible to correlate it with other genetic data, like maternal Haplogroup, autosomal data, Neanderthal%, even some rare phenotypes?
      Rapid demographic expansions can be difficult to pin down after the fact, because it appears (to us today) that the clade popped up everywhere at once. How does one explain a rare DF27 subclade like BY653 that has, to my knowledge, only 3 surnames: 2 British Isles and 1 Ukraine? Not to mention all the singletons.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
        Rapid demographic expansions can be difficult to pin down after the fact, because it appears (to us today) that the clade popped up everywhere at once. How does one explain a rare DF27 subclade like BY653 that has, to my knowledge, only 3 surnames: 2 British Isles and 1 Ukraine? Not to mention all the singletons.
        Which is why ancient DNA and Next Generation Sequencing are so valuable.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
          Rapid demographic expansions can be difficult to pin down after the fact, because it appears (to us today) that the clade popped up everywhere at once. How does one explain a rare DF27 subclade like BY653 that has, to my knowledge, only 3 surnames: 2 British Isles and 1 Ukraine? Not to mention all the singletons.
          The Basque Country is the core, do they show lots of diverse subclades, or a rather uniform inbred pattern?

          The lack of testing in France is a problem, there were lots of ancient more or less isolated groups there, like the Cagoles.
          I lived in a rather soft hilly part of Lorraine. There was a village there you couldn't see because it was at the bottom of a sort of crater, with steep slopes. Many of the villagers showed a striking recognizable phenotype. These small isolates must have been everywhere there and there in France.
          Last edited by Ric; 17 July 2015, 11:21 AM. Reason: correct

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ric View Post
            The Basque Country is the core, do they show lots of diverse subclades, or a rather uniform inbred pattern?
            Unfortunately, there haven't been any large NGS (Next Generation Sequencing) studies of the Basque Country for an accurate answer to that but, so far, statistically the Basque do seem to be mostly in the Z195/Z196 subclade.

            Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is the fact that the combined Basque population in Spain and France is only 3-5 million. It is much easier to have a founder effect in a relatively small population.

            The data that we do have so far is below.

            According to Martínez-Cruz et al. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/9/2211.full which determined that the there is "a significant correlation between geographic and genetic distances for both Y chromosome haplogroups (P = 0.007) and haplotypes (P = 0.034)." and "Basque-speaking populations show lower levels of diversity in their Y chromosome (haplogroup diversity and mean number of pairwise differences) compared with their surrounding populations. Likewise, low levels of diversity have been observed in some populations along the Pyrenees (Lopez-Parra et al. 2009). Levels of consanguinity in the Basque country, especially in Gipuzkoa, have been shown to be very high, particularly in rural areas (Alfonso-Sanchez et al. 2005)." but I don't know how good an indicator STR markers really are for diversity. In the Martínez-Cruz et al. study the only DF27 subclades that were SNP tested were M153 and SRY2627. P312xL21,U152 was actually higher than M153 and SRY2627 combined in some regions. See Table 3 of the XLS at http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...s091/suppl/DC1

            If DF27 had been tested in Martínez-Cruz et al. most of the P312xL21,U152 would have been DF27 as can be seen in the Valverde et al. study. (See Supplementary Table S2 (xls 24K) at http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html) so there could be a lot of diverse DF27 subclades among the Basque that haven't been identified.

            In the DF27 project results at https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults there are some people with Basque ancestry that don't specifically say they do such as people that are Z2552+, DF81+ or A2145+ plus the ones that do that are in diverse subclades of the Z220 branch http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b1a2a1a2a1a/ which is an ancestor of M153 which is the marker that was called the Basque marker when it was discovered since it was so prevalent among the Basque. Since the Z220 subclades, M153, and SRY2627 are all subclades of Z195 then, as it stands now, Z195 is the most common DF27 subclade of the Basque.

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            • #36
              Haplotype diversity may be low in a homogeneous population. Isn't that what we see in Ireland with the M222 and Z253 branches?

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              • #37
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                Haplotype diversity may be low in a homogeneous population. Isn't that what we see in Ireland with the M222 and Z253 branches?
                I truly don't know if that is what is seen in Ireland using the same process that Martínez-Cruz used. I had never even looked up the population of Ireland until now. It isn't much higher of the combined population of Spanish and French Basques. That would be a fairly good apple to apple comparison.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Armando View Post
                  So far, statistically the Basque do seem to be mostly in the Z195/Z196 subclade.
                  I didn't think about comparing the amount of Z195-/Z196- non-Basques vs Z195+/Z196+ non-Basques until today. I put all of the DF27 kits from the DF27 project into a spreadsheet. I removed any that aren't confirmed or predicted for a subclade and I ended up with 694 (761 counting the group headers). Since some of the Hispanics could be of Basque ancestry I removed participants that reported a country of origin of Mexico, Puerto Rico, or Spain the total only drops to 684. Of those, 521 are in a Z195/Z196 subclade. So even in non-Basques the majority are Z195+/Z196+. This goes to show we need a lot more large academic studies of Europe using NGS testing in order to understand how diverse each region really is for DF27, or for any haplogroup and their subclades.

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                  • #39
                    Am I the only DF27 (presumed) to have NO Relatives (12 markers) located in the Basque Country in the Matches maps ?
                    I have a few in Spain, so you would think that I would get a few in the DF27 core, i.e. the Basque Country.

                    Unless of course the Basque people didn't mix with surrounding France or Spain AND don't test, which would make them invisible on the map, in addition to other genetic effects like bottlenecks effects.

                    (OK, I have one Basque and 4 Spanish/Portuguese matches on the map, no good for stats but that's all I got)
                    Last edited by Ric; 21 July 2015, 11:12 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ric View Post
                      Am I the only DF27 (presumed) to have NO Relatives (12 markers) located in the Basque Country in the Matches maps ?
                      I have a few in Spain, so you would think that I would get a few in the DF27 core, i.e. the Basque Country.

                      Unless of course the Basque people didn't mix with surrounding France or Spain AND don't test, which would make them invisible on the map, in addition to other genetic effects like bottlenecks effects.

                      (OK, I have one Basque and 4 Spanish/Portuguese matches on the map, no good for stats but that's all I got)
                      Statistically there aren't a lot of Basques at FTDNA which mostly has people from the U.S. and northwest Europe. If Basques tested at the same rate then you would have a lot of Basque matches in the map.

                      Even when I look at kits of people with Basque ancestry they don't get a lot of matches from the Basque country.

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