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Jewish Y DNA and figuring out just how close the TMRCA

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  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by blejerh View Post
    My son and his father's 4th cousin tested and they have a distance of 4. Two of the markers they differ on are known to be fast mutating and one of the markers of the four is part of a pair. Their shared male ancestor was born in the late 1700s. Ashkenazi Jewish from Courland (Latvia) relocated to the Southern Ukraine. Jews came to Crimea and Southern Ukraine starting primarily in the 19th century. His family was part of the 1841 group of Jews, mostly from four Latvian cities (Mitau, Bausk, Kuldiga, Jenava) sent to form agricultural settlements. His ancestors had come to Courland from Prussia earlier.

    And I also can attest in my father's mother's family that endogamous marriages were the norm going back as far as we can find records. Levite, rabbinical family.
    Thank you very much for sharing this. That is interesting to see a known but more distant relative compared and how far apart the GD can vary, and on what kind of markers. Being able to also compare this to Bob who posted a couple posts back is great! He is a GD of 3 on the 67 to a cousin that they share a 6x great grandfather back to 1680.

    I also appreciate the historical information that you gave about Jewish families in the region.
    Last edited by Táltos; 17 July 2014, 12:15 AM.

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  • blejerh
    replied
    My son and his father's 4th cousin tested and they have a distance of 4. Two of the markers they differ on are known to be fast mutating and one of the markers of the four is part of a pair. Their shared male ancestor was born in the late 1700s. Ashkenazi Jewish from Courland (Latvia) relocated to the Southern Ukraine. Jews came to Crimea and Southern Ukraine starting primarily in the 19th century. His family was part of the 1841 group of Jews, mostly from four Latvian cities (Mitau, Bausk, Kuldiga, Jenava) sent to form agricultural settlements. His ancestors had come to Courland from Prussia earlier.

    And I also can attest in my father's mother's family that endogamous marriages were the norm going back as far as we can find records. Levite, rabbinical family.

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  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by 247267 View Post
    Hi Táltos,

    Going back to your first post, where you say "At the 67 marker level my brother has four matches at a GD of 3".

    In case it's of any help to you time-wise, I have a GD3 match at 67 markers who is a known distant cousin from our
    6 x great-grandfather who was born c1680.

    Not to say that your brother's match is that long ago, but you never know !

    Bob
    Hi Bob,
    Thanks so much for that! That's exactly what I'm looking for. In my brother's small group of four other men (that he is a GD of 3 from at the 67 marker) they are all now tested to 111.

    They all match each other pretty close GD of 2 at 111. I forget off the top of my head if maybe two of them match closer than a 2. But anyway I am curious to see how far off my brother would be from the rest at the 111 marker. I hope there will be a decent sale for that upgrade soon.

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  • 247267
    replied
    GD of 3 at 67 markers

    Hi Táltos,

    Going back to your first post, where you say "At the 67 marker level my brother has four matches at a GD of 3".

    In case it's of any help to you time-wise, I have a GD3 match at 67 markers who is a known distant cousin from our
    6 x great-grandfather who was born c1680.

    Not to say that your brother's match is that long ago, but you never know !

    Bob

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  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    If your ancestor was Jewish, the primary spelling was probably Slavic and not Lithuanian. My mother's situation might illustrate the pattern. She had a Polish (Slavic) surname which was the only one the family used in Lithuania and in the US. She immigrated to the US a couple of years after Lithuania gained independence. I recently found Lithuanian transit records in which authorities changed her name to the Lithuanian spelling.
    Josh thank you once again for all of your tips!

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    Keep in mind that the surname Krakovsky was probably adopted in the 1800s and the Lithuanian version in the 1900s. There are some Krakovskys in Lithuanian databases. The Slavic-Yiddish version of the name might also be found in Polish and Ukrainian databases, but probably not the Lithuanian version. Do you know the Yiddish version of your ancestor's given name-- that is how he would be listed in government records.
    Since most Jewish surnames in eastern Europe were not adopted until the 1800s, I would not expect the dna matches to have the same surname although the families might have lived in Krakow at some point.
    If your ancestor was Jewish, the primary spelling was probably Slavic and not Lithuanian. My mother's situation might illustrate the pattern. She had a Polish (Slavic) surname which was the only one the family used in Lithuania and in the US. She immigrated to the US a couple of years after Lithuania gained independence. I recently found Lithuanian transit records in which authorities changed her name to the Lithuanian spelling.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Táltos View Post
    Josh thanks much for the tip!
    Keep in mind that the surname Krakovsky was probably adopted in the 1800s and the Lithuanian version in the 1900s. There are some Krakovskys in Lithuanian databases. The Slavic-Yiddish version of the name might also be found in Polish and Ukrainian databases, but probably not the Lithuanian version. Do you know the Yiddish version of your ancestor's given name-- that is how he would be listed in government records.
    Since most Jewish surnames in eastern Europe were not adopted until the 1800s, I would not expect the dna matches to have the same surname although the families might have lived in Krakow at some point.

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  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    They are different places. Your family name points to the city in western Poland. At JewishGen you might limit your search to the 'sounds exactly like' option.
    Josh thanks much for the tip!

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Táltos View Post
    Hi Josh. From what I know it was Krakaukas/Krakoski. When I was entering the name like that under the Ukraine databases that spelling (and variations of it) came up a lot more than the way we spell it. I was wondering if that is a Ukrainian version of it? Or something else?
    They are different places. Your family name points to the city in western Poland. At JewishGen you might limit your search to the 'sounds exactly like' option.

    Leave a comment:


  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    Not clear, was your ancestor's surname Cherkasskij. It points to a region of the Ukraine south of Keiv.
    Hi Josh. From what I know it was Krakaukas/Krakoski. When I was entering the name like that under the Ukraine databases that spelling (and variations of it) came up a lot more than the way we spell it. I was wondering if that is a Ukrainian version of it? Or something else?

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Táltos View Post
    Yes. I was up waaayyy too late last night looking there. I focused on the Ukraine. I wasn't quite sure what I was looking for either. I kept coming across variants of this surname- Cherkasskij when looking for my own. I also came across a few with similar spellings to how mine is, but nothing that I could connect. I was also looking to see if any of my brother's matches names came up in the same records, but no luck.
    Not clear, was your ancestor's surname Cherkasskij. It points to a region of the Ukraine south of Keiv.

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  • Táltos
    replied
    SO Another thought....

    I have been corresponding recently with my brother's match who does not know of any Jewish ancestry either. We traded Gedmatch numbers. We do show some matching there. We don't match each other here, I'm wondering if we might just sit under the threshold.

    Here are the stats of how we match.
    Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
    1 240,754,013 243,378,785 7.1 591
    2 122,930,526 127,266,748 4.0 897
    5 37,932,397 40,184,520 3.8 628
    6 22,496,866 24,488,936 3.2 695
    8 48,972,954 53,989,785 4.0 809
    10 117,479,268 119,416,948 3.5 585
    12 77,453,804 82,070,202 4.2 852
    13 36,284,100 38,227,692 3.3 563
    15 44,797,794 47,522,404 3.2 608

    Largest segment = 7.1 cM
    Total of segments > 3 cM = 36.3 cM
    Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 6.3

    Yes a lot of smaller segments, but chromosome one I think looks promising. And they are on several chromosomes, not just one or two. He and I do not match on the X chromosome, which is good. I would not expect to match him there as this is the direct paternal line, and I'm female. He also does not match my Mom on Gedmatch.

    The only thing that bugs me is he does not match me on chromosome 7. That is the chromosome where all my Jewish matches, match me. But, and I'm sure this is a huge but... if in our particular families we converted, and our paternal lines started to marry out from the Jewish ancestry it makes sense that he and I don't match on chromosome 7??

    Another interesting thing about this match, I can find variations of our surnames being associated with the Ślepowron coat of arms. Now I can't be sure of anything with that. However I'm just trying to understand what could have gone into making my family convert. I'm sure there are several reasons, and most are probably not so nice. Anyway I have heard about some instances where Jewish people converted, and then obtained coats of arms and status. Part of the story that I have been told about my family was that they had a large farm in Lithuania, and had money. So I don't know, just brainstorming!

    BTW Gnarlodious, thanks for the bit about getting hatched. That really cracked me up!

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  • Táltos
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I assume that you have tried JewishGen and the genealogical site Geni. At JewishGen, you might start with Ukrainian databases
    Yes. I was up waaayyy too late last night looking there. I focused on the Ukraine. I wasn't quite sure what I was looking for either. I kept coming across variants of this surname- Cherkasskij when looking for my own. I also came across a few with similar spellings to how mine is, but nothing that I could connect. I was also looking to see if any of my brother's matches names came up in the same records, but no luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Gnarlodious View Post
    I've gone through this process too, with no recognizable names on the 37 level and one closest match at only a GD of 2. One thing I figured out from the genealogy I do have is that my ancestors were endogamous. For example, four great-great-grandparents were siblings who had children who then married each other. I believe that genetically this gives the same result as sister-brother incest, then they hatched my grandfather. The result of this endogamy is a stretching of the genetic distance, making it look like normal matches are farther back than they really are. I've read numerous non-match reports here and I think the endogamy may be more common than people know or want to admit.

    The Jewish matches are especially problematic. I have many autosomal matches from Lithuania even though I have no known ancestors from there since 2 centuries ago. One explanation is that they were Crimean Jews who migrated en masse to Lithuania some centuries ago, while my immediate ancestors ended up in Ukraine. It's important to realize that Jews were highly mobile and changed their names routinely. In the old world life was pretty crappy and Jews often built entire mythologies on their background for the sole purpose of avoiding identification.
    Jews were in Poland, Lithuania and the western Ukraine before they were in Crimea. My closest Y match was from Georgia. The Russian government forced Russian Jews to populate the Caucasus in the 1800s. That is, the general Jewish migration pattern was west to east.

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  • Gnarlodious
    replied
    Endogamy...

    I've gone through this process too, with no recognizable names on the 37 level and one closest match at only a GD of 2. One thing I figured out from the genealogy I do have is that my ancestors were endogamous. For example, four great-great-grandparents were siblings who had children who then married each other. I believe that genetically this gives the same result as sister-brother incest, then they hatched my grandfather. The result of this endogamy is a stretching of the genetic distance, making it look like normal matches are farther back than they really are. I've read numerous non-match reports here and I think the endogamy may be more common than people know or want to admit.

    The Jewish matches are especially problematic. I have many autosomal matches from Lithuania even though I have no known ancestors from there since 2 centuries ago. One explanation is that they were Crimean Jews who migrated en masse to Lithuania some centuries ago, while my immediate ancestors ended up in Ukraine. It's important to realize that Jews were highly mobile and changed their names routinely. In the old world life was pretty crappy and Jews often built entire mythologies on their background for the sole purpose of avoiding identification.
    Last edited by Gnarlodious; 18 February 2014, 07:08 PM.

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