P312** Brythonic Celts?

[1798]

Hello All,
There are currently just over a dozen P312** members. Their surnames are:
Armstrong
McFarlane
Williams
Jenkins
Ellis
Ireland
Meek
Crosby
Hatton
Keyes
Reader
Hewitt
Fimbres
The first two may well be of Kingdom of Rheged/Strathclyde Brythonic Celt stock, while Williams & Jenkins suggest Welsh Brythonic stock?
The Ellis member has a 17th C ancestor from N Wales, while Crosby has Bristol (western England) links.
Ireland has an ancestor from Lancashire (a western county), and Meek is via Antrim roots.
Fimbres is Spanish/French?
I appreciate the above may be split apart by further testing, the common denominator for the above, so far, is largely western British Isles, so potentially Brythonic Celt links?
Any views?
Bob

I believe that P312**in the Isles are indigenous.Intuition.

[bob armstrong]

Working on the miniscule info available so far, plus adding the Hewitt/Hewelsfield/Gloucestershire potential 'western England' possibility, I'd say there is very likely something worth investigating here.
I'm also intrigued by the Ellis/N.Wales/Bala testee. Bala would be one of the places I'd be expecting to see some strong Brythonic Celt blood!
Bob

[bob armstrong]

I dialled up Acestry's Surname maps, compiled from census data, and found that even the few surnames on the list of 13 generally had high representation 'West of the Pennines'.

KEYES: Well represented in S Wales & Lancs in the west; Kent & Essex in the east. Southern Scottish presence, too.
HATTON: Lancashire, Cheshire, Herefordshire, Staffs & Warks
REEDER: Cheshire in the west; Yorkshire & Norfolk (Norfolk in the east)
IRELAND: Lancs, Cheshire & Yorks.
CROSBY: Lancs, Cheshire & Yorks

Yorkshire is obviously a huge county, so it would be useful to know what part of the county folk hailed from. As I mentioned earlier, one of the surnames with Yorks links had an ancestor born close to where an army from Gwynedd fought.

I haven't mentioned most of the other surnames' Ancestry Census map results as they are largely as one would expect.

Bob

[bob armstrong]

Hello All,
There are currently just over a dozen P312** members. Their surnames are:
Armstrong
McFarlane
Williams
Jenkins
Ellis
Ireland
Meek
Crosby
Hatton
Keyes
Reader
Hewitt
Fimbres
The first two may well be of Kingdom of Rheged/Strathclyde Brythonic Celt stock, while Williams & Jenkins suggest Welsh Brythonic stock?
The Ellis member has a 17th C ancestor from N Wales, while Crosby has Bristol (western England) links.
Ireland has an ancestor from Lancashire (a western county), and Meek is via Antrim roots.
Fimbres is Spanish/French?
I appreciate the above may be split apart by further testing, the common denominator for the above, so far, is largely western British Isles, so potentially Brythonic Celt links?
Any views?
Bob

A helpful chap called Mark Jost kindly ran interclade & founder's age for the above & found 'very close numbers' . They averaged out at between 3,400 - 3,400 , so very old. Plenty of time for the group to split apart, but the 'West of Pennines' bias might mean something.
Bob

[1798]

P312 should have a TMRCA of 6000 to 9000 ybp.Mark needs a new formula.

[T E Peterman]

I show P312 having a MRCA at 5000 ybp at the earliest. Where do you get 6000 to 9000 ybp?

Timothy Peterman

[bob armstrong]

Mark posted his more detailed reply on WorldFamilies forum under R1b & Subclades. My post is currently on the 2nd page, titled:

P312** - Brythonic?

The science angle is beyond me, so I hoipe I haven't misquoted Mark, especially as he was kind enough to run the calculations.

Bob

[1798]

The SNP that this group find downstream of P312 will tell who they really are.If the SNP is not found outside the Isles then you will know that they belong to a pre-Celtic group.

[Stevo]

The SNP that this group find downstream of P312 will tell who they really are.If the SNP is not found outside the Isles then you will know that they belong to a pre-Celtic group.

That's not necessarily true at all. What if P312 itself arrived in the Isles with the Celts?

[1798]

That's not necessarily true at all. What if P312 itself arrived in the Isles with the Celts?

Yes you are right.Some P312 probably did arrive with the Celts. What I cant understand is why they would remain P312 and others mutated to L21 etc.I try to look at all of it with an open mind.I think we can learn a lot from the people with the private SNPs.

[T E Peterman]

Mutations are random. When a SNP occurs in y-DNA, the one son in the father's haplogroup is positive for the new SNP. Any other sons are negative. The actual tree (which we can't see yet), probably consisted of these types of forks in the road; a positive path & a negative path. I doubt there were ever occurances where more than one son had a mutation (both different, of course). The scenario in which one P312 man appears to be the father of U152, L21, & all of the others is probably just an illusion. In reality, one broke off first, followed by another & then another. We may also discover that two or more of the subgroups were nested under their own SNP, sort of like DF13 under L21 tying a bunch of L21's subclades together. We will know a lot more in a few years.

We could say that the men who are P312* represent the negative 2/3 of the population that survived whenever a new haplogroup split off; and they were nagative over and over as P312 was broken into a number of subclades.

We might eventually find a new SNP that ties some of these Brythonic men together, but it probably won't include all of them. A few will remain who are P312*

We need for as many M269 (confirmed or projected) to upgrade, because the vast majority of these are not M269* Such upgrades will ultimately populate the ranks of P312 & U106 with a lot more members, from whom a lot more can be learned.

Timothy Peterman

[bob armstrong]

The aristocracy of the Kingdom of Strathclyde were forced out of the region & decamped to Gwynedd in 890 AD. It'll be fascinating to see if, in the fulness of time, DNA links are proven.
Bob

[bob armstrong]

I'm currently awaiting Z2245 & Z2247 results, & am hoping that others who are R-P312** will take the same. It'd be particularly useful if the Dieppe-linked testee would consider those, too.
I've spent most of my life thinking my family were of Norman stock, but in recent years have tried to make a case for other origins - Brythonic Celt being the most recent. However, a recent potential breakthrough found in some 12th & 13th C records has reinforced the Norman theory.
Bob