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P312** Brythonic Celts?

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  • P312** Brythonic Celts?

    Hello All,
    There are currently just over a dozen P312** members. Their surnames are:
    Armstrong
    McFarlane
    Williams
    Jenkins
    Ellis
    Ireland
    Meek
    Crosby
    Hatton
    Keyes
    Reader
    Hewitt
    Fimbres
    The first two may well be of Kingdom of Rheged/Strathclyde Brythonic Celt stock, while Williams & Jenkins suggest Welsh Brythonic stock?
    The Ellis member has a 17th C ancestor from N Wales, while Crosby has Bristol (western England) links.
    Ireland has an ancestor from Lancashire (a western county), and Meek is via Antrim roots.
    Fimbres is Spanish/French?
    I appreciate the above may be split apart by further testing, the common denominator for the above, so far, is largely western British Isles, so potentially Brythonic Celt links?
    Any views?
    Bob

  • #2
    The Ellis member is my 3rd cousin. His patriline goes back to Humphrey Ellis of Llyancil Parish near Bala in North Wales, who immigrated with his brother, Cadwallader Ellis, to Pennsylvania in the late 1690s.

    Timothy Peterman

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Timothy,
      The extra info is useful. I'm not saying this theory is 100%, but I was merely looking at the info as it stands & trying to see a pattern. It may be that some of these surnames separate with future testing.
      A long shot, but worth considering!
      Cheers,
      Bob
      PS I wondered if the Wallace surname would provide clues: William Wallace was aka Uilleam Breatnach or William the Briton. This probably as he spoke in a Cumbric tongue.
      Wallace seems to derive from Walensis/Waleis etc - the name used by non-Britons to mean mean foreigner.
      Sadly, there seem to be quite a few HGs representing the Wallace surname.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Celts belonged to a mixture of haplogroups. P312 is at least 5000 ybp so I dont think these people have found their downstream SNPs yet. SNPs can happen between 25 and 2000 years.


        Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
        Hello All,
        There are currently just over a dozen P312** members. Their surnames are:
        Armstrong
        McFarlane
        Williams
        Jenkins
        Ellis
        Ireland
        Meek
        Crosby
        Hatton
        Keyes
        Reader
        Hewitt
        Fimbres
        The first two may well be of Kingdom of Rheged/Strathclyde Brythonic Celt stock, while Williams & Jenkins suggest Welsh Brythonic stock?
        The Ellis member has a 17th C ancestor from N Wales, while Crosby has Bristol (western England) links.
        Ireland has an ancestor from Lancashire (a western county), and Meek is via Antrim roots.
        Fimbres is Spanish/French?
        I appreciate the above may be split apart by further testing, the common denominator for the above, so far, is largely western British Isles, so potentially Brythonic Celt links?
        Any views?
        Bob

        Comment


        • #5
          The important message to take away from this is that many of these surnames may share a hitherto undiscovered SNP nested beneath P312 that is largely localized to Wales.

          Timothy Peterman

          Comment


          • #6
            In 600 AD the Brythonic Celt Kingdoms of Strathclyde & Rheged stretched south from Glasgow to Gwynedd in N Wales. By 625AD, the Northumbrians had split these kingdoms apart, taking large parts of Cheshire & Lancs under their control.
            It's likely many in Cumbria & southern Scotland had never set foot in Wales, but they shared DNA with their 'cousins' in Wales at some point.
            I would guess a reasonable percentage of English & southern Scots folk today will be of Brythonic Celt stock - particularly from the western third of England & beyond.
            If those 13 testees had strong links to E Anglia & Kent, I wouldn't be considering a Celt origin for them.
            Conjecture at this stage, but interesting?
            Bob

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
              Conjecture at this stage, but interesting?
              Well it's clearly interesting to you, you were also proposing it on at least one other forum... I'm more on the side of the conjecture guys, who already told you what you don't want to hear. But you're entitled to your own obsessions, most of us have some.

              One name on your list, Hewitt, has interested me a little, for reasons that might give you aid and comfort. The Forest of Dean area has a Hyett family that may have some etymological debt to Welsh (Monmouthshire in SE Wales shares a fairly long border, mainly the Wye River, with the Forest).

              And one of the Lost Colony names (in the FTDNA project) is Hewet. A lot of the push from England to Carolina in the 1580s was from the Bristol Channel area, esp. Bideford. This "Hew-" might be from the same root as the one in Pugh (ap Hugh), and it's a Welsh root. My own ancestral name Hulin may be from Hywel -- also Welsh, and also found (in maybe a slightly Saxonized form) mainly in the Forest of Dean -- though I haven't yet found any proof of our ancestry from there.

              You say Brythonic, I say tomahto; anyway, those are some more people named on your R-P312** (so far) list who may come from the right part of the Isles to have been Brythonic... a thousand years or so earlier.

              And btw if R-P312** doesn't work out for you, you might look at haplogroup G, among families from that area (including Keyes and Hulin).

              Comment


              • #8
                On the contrary, Razyn: I'm delighted to have my current theory put to the test. Surely it's how the truth might eventually be reached? For the record, my Brythonic theory isn't an obsession. Over nearly 40 years, I've researched numerous leads.
                In recent years, I've written pieces for our Clan magazine supporting Norman, Flemish, Breton, Anglo-Danish & other origins. My current Celt theory is based on some interesting docs I have seen from the early 1200s which gave me reason to think the Celt option MAY now be favourite.
                Personally, I think the Celt option is a slightly better bet than the Norman theory, but either (or neither!!!) may be accurate. Docs I have from the late 1100s show my surname working alongside Norman-descended folk in Cumberland who largely had links to Lincolnshire & Normandy. I have managed to find forestry connections between some people from the Cotentin, leading to Lincolnshire, then on to Cumberland.
                If I could choose an origin for my surname, I have to say I have little preference. I can see great value in much that the Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Picts, Celts, Flemings etc have achieved. I have to say, another 'obsession' as you may view it, is trying to up the proifile of the Flemings whose input into Scottish history tends to get overlooked in favour of the Normans. I'd be proud to have Flemish roots.
                Cheers,
                Bob
                Last edited by bob armstrong; 20 October 2012, 01:15 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I do apologise, Razyn. I forgot to thank you for the Hewitt information. That was one of the surnames I was struggling to 'push' further west.
                  There was another name on the list which may have had a Celtic link. The chap with that surname had an ancestor born close to the scene of a battle in England where warriors from Gwynedd had fought in numbers.
                  I appreciate it isn't proof, but I try to assemble as much info to try & see if any connections may be reasonably made.
                  Bob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
                    thank you for the Hewitt information. That was one of the surnames I was struggling to 'push' further west.
                    Btw the putative "Hywel" connection is based on Hewelsfield, which was in the Domesday Book as Hiwoldestone:

                    http://domesdaymap.co.uk/place/SO5602/hewelsfield/

                    I think the Hulins (spelled many ways, as we still are) show up in the 1220s; I haven't obsessed about that, yet. But anyway, when the surname does appear in records, it's at St. Briavels -- about a mile from Hewelsfield. Also, by that time, that whole area was a dependency of Tintern Abbey, on the Welsh side of the river. But there are Norman castles at St. Briavels, and downstream at Chepstow, that had pretty well settled the question of who was in charge, right around time of the said Domesday Book. Maybe the local biggies included some of your guys from the Cotentin, for all I know. But I know some of them also had Welsh derived names, such as Powell (ap Hywel, n.b.).

                    http://www.castlewales.com/stbrivls.html

                    http://www.castlewales.com/chepstow.html

                    There is folk etymology or onomastics for both Hewelsfield (the high wold field) and Hulin (little Hugh of Lincoln, etc.) that ignores Welsh patronyms, etc. (Or Brythonic ones.) However, I don't think those etymologies are necessarily right, just because they happen to be in print. At the time of the Domesday Book, Hywel Dda had only been dead for a bit over a century -- and his sons were still big shots in Wales long after he died.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
                      In 600 AD the Brythonic Celt Kingdoms of Strathclyde & Rheged stretched south from Glasgow to Gwynedd in N Wales. By 625AD, the Northumbrians had split these kingdoms apart, taking large parts of Cheshire & Lancs under their control.
                      It's likely many in Cumbria & southern Scotland had never set foot in Wales, but they shared DNA with their 'cousins' in Wales at some point.
                      I would guess a reasonable percentage of English & southern Scots folk today will be of Brythonic Celt stock - particularly from the western third of England & beyond.
                      If those 13 testees had strong links to E Anglia & Kent, I wouldn't be considering a Celt origin for them.
                      Conjecture at this stage, but interesting?
                      Bob
                      At one time in the past East Anglia was 80% R1b and today it is 50%. There was a replacement of 30% of the R1b people. That means that the R1b East Anglians are more native than you think.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't doubt it. Also, the vast baulk of Britain was reputedly Brythonic Celt at one time, hence my surprise that so many seem oblivious to the likelihood that their ancestors may well be Celts, even though they themselves are English.
                        I stressed the 'West of the Pennines' results as the Anglo-Saxons & others had less influence there.
                        Bob

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by razyn View Post
                          Btw the putative "Hywel" connection is based on Hewelsfield, which was in the Domesday Book as Hiwoldestone:

                          http://domesdaymap.co.uk/place/SO5602/hewelsfield/

                          I think the Hulins (spelled many ways, as we still are) show up in the 1220s; I haven't obsessed about that, yet. But anyway, when the surname does appear in records, it's at St. Briavels -- about a mile from Hewelsfield. Also, by that time, that whole area was a dependency of Tintern Abbey, on the Welsh side of the river. But there are Norman castles at St. Briavels, and downstream at Chepstow, that had pretty well settled the question of who was in charge, right around time of the said Domesday Book. Maybe the local biggies included some of your guys from the Cotentin, for all I know. But I know some of them also had Welsh derived names, such as Powell (ap Hywel, n.b.).

                          http://www.castlewales.com/stbrivls.html

                          http://www.castlewales.com/chepstow.html

                          There is folk etymology or onomastics for both Hewelsfield (the high wold field) and Hulin (little Hugh of Lincoln, etc.) that ignores Welsh patronyms, etc. (Or Brythonic ones.) However, I don't think those etymologies are necessarily right, just because they happen to be in print. At the time of the Domesday Book, Hywel Dda had only been dead for a bit over a century -- and his sons were still big shots in Wales long after he died.
                          Thanks Razyn. Useful info. I believe the verdering tradition was something that saw certain families moving across the country. I haven't looked closely at Wales & the neighbouring English counties. I did find that the famous de Neville family, some of whom were Chief Foresters & the like, had branches who were actually Gospatrics who had 'taken' the name.
                          Bob

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            what does ** mean?

                            Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
                            Hello All,
                            There are currently just over a dozen P312** members. Their surnames are:
                            Maybe a 'stupid' question but what do ** (2 stars) mean? I know that people use one (1) star to denote terminal snp, - for negative and + for positive but what are **? And which project is this? I am member of the P312 project, and think there are 100's of members if not more. I thouhgt I was R-P312* but then with new snp's emerging I now know I am R-P312+DF27+ possibly DF27* as sofar all snps below DF27 have tested negative. Anyway, what does ** mean, that's my question...
                            Last edited by lc0; 20 October 2012, 04:27 PM. Reason: small typos corrected

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
                              I don't doubt it. Also, the vast baulk of Britain was reputedly Brythonic Celt at one time, hence my surprise that so many seem oblivious to the likelihood that their ancestors may well be Celts, even though they themselves are English.
                              I stressed the 'West of the Pennines' results as the Anglo-Saxons & others had less influence there.
                              Bob
                              I agree, Bob. British survival in England was far greater than many people expected, especially as one moves north and west.

                              Comment

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