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  • #16
    Originally posted by AuntyDud View Post

    What business would any of those be of yours? How would you get access to them anyway, if you were not an administrator of a project to which I have signed up my testee?
    Why in the world start this thread? How about instead of you coming on here insulting people and saying something like this, You call FTDNA and remove yourself from the site? Or make all your information Private.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
      Why in the world start this thread? How about instead of you coming on here insulting people and saying something like this, You call FTDNA and remove yourself from the site? Or make all your information Private.
      Oh look, it's another one.

      Some people around here really do seem to be itching for a fight, and willing to invent mud to fling at other people for that purpose if necessary, eh?


      What I do not want disclosed without my consent is:

      - my name, my telephone number, my address -- all of which were in my account details and made available to project administrators without my knowledge

      - the other projects to which my testees may belong -- the very fact of that membership being something that may disclose sensitive personal information

      What business would any of those be of yours? How would you get access to them anyway, if you were not an administrator of a project to which I have signed up my testee?



      Read the part where I said that I do provide:

      - a contact email address
      - the surname and approximate DOB and place of birth for the most distant known ancestor

      that are available to anyone with whom my testees match at FTDNA or Ysearch.

      (and also, in the case of ancestral info, in the YDNA charts for all the projects to which I have signed them up.)


      I am currently corresponding most cordially with one person with a match with my R1b1a2 testee and one person with a lesser match with my I2b1 testee, both of whom I have provided with FTDNA kit number and Ysearch ID and ancestral information, and with the administrator of a geographic project to which one of the testees is signed up with whom I am chatting about various locale-related, ancestor-related, DNA-related and BBC drama-related things, and I have joined and contributed to Yahoo groups for two FTDNA YDNA projects and an off-FTDNA site for another. I got the 37-marker results about 10 days ago. I'm doing just fine, ta very much. I'm just not worth you all working yourself into conniptions over. Sorry.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by AuntyDud View Post
        Oh look, it's another one.

        Some people around here really do seem to be itching for a fight, and willing to invent mud to fling at other people for that purpose if necessary, eh?
        Actually I couldn't care less. I was giving you advice to call FTDNA or make your info private.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
          Actually I couldn't care less. I was giving you advice to call FTDNA or make your info private.
          I'll be sure to ask for your advice when I need it. We're probably done now.

          Comment


          • #20
            I don't understand why someone so worried about privacy would give personal information to FTDNA without checking in advance to see what they do with it.

            My name, e-mail address, mailing address, phone number and all types of personal information are all over the Internet. It hasn't hurt me in all of these years. But it might tomorrow.

            I do genealogy. To me that means I have to share and I have to but my information where others can find it. Did you notice that my REAL NAME and my REAL LOCATION are part of this message.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
              I don't understand why someone so worried about privacy would give personal information to FTDNA without checking in advance to see what they do with it.
              Well, I guess living in a country that has legislation about this stuff, I got complacent. It simply never occurred to me that personal information would be disclosed.

              Btw, I've found what I was looking for, in the privacy statement. Yuppers, I shoulda read it, because it's different from any website privacy statement I've seen:

              Family Tree DNA provides the option to participate in one or more projects. This may help you learn more by working with others who may share similar ancestry. If you choose to participate in a project, the project administrator will be able to view your results and contact information so that he or she may best help members of the project learn about their ancestry.

              Project administrators have no need to have contact information that includes name, address and telephone number.

              But there ya go; I was on notice, had I seen that and realized that "contact information" didn't mean the same thing it meant for ordinary users: the email address I supply for that purpose.

              So that members can share information more easily, projects often have a public website displaying member results. The free website that Family Tree DNA provides to projects lists member results by kit number. Results tables and maps on the free public website may include a participant’s oldest known ancestor, the ancestor’s country of origin, surname, and full name.

              This is flatly incorrect. Some projects that I have joined display results by member surname.


              My name, e-mail address, mailing address, phone number and all types of personal information are all over the Internet. It hasn't hurt me in all of these years. But it might tomorrow.
              I don't understand why anyone thinks that what they do or want matters to someone else. I certainly haven't suggested that what I want should govern what anyone else does. Anyone who wants to disclose all their identifying personal information, any way they choose, is free to do so, by me. (Mind you, I do think that organizations that offer facilities for individuals to put information on line should be, if you'll forgive the jargon, proactive about protecting their privacy, since there are always newbies and people who aren't fully aware of the potential issues.)

              Has everybody here missed the entire last few years, and all the issues surrounding things like Facebook, and how many people do care about protecting their personal information?

              I do genealogy. To me that means I have to share and I have to but my information where others can find it. Did you notice that my REAL NAME and my REAL LOCATION are part of this message.
              No it doesn't. It means you have choice. You can choose to share whatever information you like, with whomever you like. It doesn't mean you have to do anything. I chose to share information with some people when there is a reason to do so and it is in my interests to do so. You are free to do what you choose to do.

              Why would I care that your real name and real location are part of your message? I'm not interested. Maybe somebody else is.

              But hey, thanks to you too for paying no attention to anything I have really said, and pretending I said something else altogether.

              That's what the internet is for, isn't it?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Jim Barrett View Post
                I don't understand why someone so worried about privacy would give personal information to FTDNA without checking in advance
                Computer scientists rely on a very short yet useful definition of trust:

                Trust an entity and you give it the ability to compromise you.

                So trust your money to someone and you will have given that person the ability to run off with it.

                And trust your privacy to a someone and they may compromise your privacy.

                So someone who is worried about their privacy should not give a private company they don't know, any information that they would not like a wider range of people to see.

                Specifically for DNA-testing, there is _nothing_ that requires the name on the kit to match the name of the person that tests. The information on the credit card can be for someone else who decides to pay and so can the postal address for the kit.

                If you trust FTDNA to handle the correct information, then you are fine to give it to them.

                If however you expect to become very upset if some of the information you have provided is distributed more widely that would like, then you should not provide that information.

                If you are taking a Y-DNA test, then you should realize that the actual family name of the person that tests will be relevant if it matches that of the most distant known paternal ancestor.

                If it is a problem for you to provide such a family name at all, then you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve in the field of genetic genealogy.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lklundin View Post
                  Computer scientists rely on a very short yet useful definition of trust:
                  Trust an entity and you give it the ability to compromise you.
                  So trust your money to someone and you will have given that person the ability to run off with it.
                  And trust your privacy to a someone and they may compromise your privacy.
                  Very true.

                  And none of which implies that anyone would do any of those things intentionally.

                  Trust someone with your money, and they may just plain lose it. Or get robbed. The more people you give your money too, the more chances you create of that happening.

                  Trust someone with your personal information, and someone else may get access to it, by any of the ways that people get access to information. Again, the more people you give your personal information to, the more chances you create of that happening.

                  Disclose your personal information to strangers only when you are pretty sure have systems and safeguards in effect to protect it (and preferably have a formal duty to do so), and only when you have a reason to do so.

                  It doesn't always work. The health insurance systems in Canadian provinces occasionally manage to leave a few reams of printouts of people's health info lying around in a dumpster. Nobody can ward off human error 100%.

                  So someone who is worried about their privacy should not give a private company they don't know, any information that they would not like a wider range of people to see.
                  Yeah, and it's kind of hard to place an order with a company without giving, oh, a postal address. Chapters Indigo does not disclose my address to someone else when I order books on line.

                  Your advice completely disregards the fact that few people are able to live entirely off the grid. If I want internet access, which is the only way I can earn a living, I have to give personal information to a company. (I could work at the local 7-11, but I'd have to give it personal information too.)

                  I actually expected that a company dealing in people's DNA would have strong protections in effect. I failed to read what I should have read. But what I should have read is also misleading in that it pretty clearly states that users' surnames will not be shown in YDNA tables, for instance.

                  Specifically for DNA-testing, there is _nothing_ that requires the name on the kit to match the name of the person that tests. The information on the credit card can be for someone else who decides to pay and so can the postal address for the kit.
                  Absolutely. And the account information that was being disclosed in my case was precisely that of a third party -- the person who ordered and paid for the kit and administers the account. It is still somebody's identifying personal information.

                  If you trust FTDNA to handle the correct information, then you are fine to give it to them.
                  I did. And I failed to read the bit in the privacy policy about it being disclosed to third parties. (That's what I was asking about here -- whether customers are averted to that fact -- and I found my own answer last night.) And I'm still gobsmacked about that.

                  If however you expect to become very upset if some of the information you have provided is distributed more widely that would like, then you should not provide that information.
                  Yes, and then I would not have received the testing kit. Yes, I suppose I should have rented a PO box for the purpose ... or just found another hobby ...

                  If you are taking a Y-DNA test, then you should realize that the actual family name of the person that tests will be relevant if it matches that of the most distant known paternal ancestor.
                  And if it does not match the name of the most distant known paternal ancestor -- which is the entire bleeding point I have been making in that regard: that in one of my testees' cases it does not, and in the case of a match with one of my testees it does not -- then disclosure of the testee's surname in the YDNA tables discloses the issue that exists in their ancestry, e.g. a non-paternal event. And some people really just may not want to disclose that on the world wide web.

                  Disclosure of other projects to which a testee belongs (for purposes of determining whether there was an NPE, and if so what it was), to project administrators, has the same effect.

                  If it is a problem for you to provide such a family name at all, then you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve in the field of genetic genealogy.
                  If you aren't going to bother reading what you are responding do, perhaps you should ask yourself what you are trying to achieve by responding.


                  Cripes, it really was and is such an easy thing to grasp. How hard have some people had to work to avoid grasping it?

                  Meanwhile, I'm off to talk to some project members about what the latest news on one of my testees means, and what we should do at this point to advance the project goals and hopefully our own ...
                  Last edited by AuntyDud; 16 October 2012, 10:13 AM. Reason: formatting

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    This is flatly incorrect. Some projects that I have joined display results by member surname.
                    You can change this by calling Customer Service and asking them to change the name. I know this because the YDNA project I joined displayed my own name which is different than the kit donor. They changed the display name to one I requested.

                    I understand the desire for privacy, and I certainly don't have a judgement in this debate at all, but it seems to me that our DNA is by definition very "personal" information at the deepest level, and someone who might be uncomfortable sharing aspects of information that promotes this investigation might feel better sticking to paper genealogy. I say this with the caveat that experienced genealogists tend to be excellent "private investigators" and able to ferret out information on a level with top law enforcement operatives. My point is that maintaining "privacy" in the face of a determined genealogist in ANY genealogical method is likely to be an excercise in futility.

                    Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mlawton View Post
                      You can change this by calling Customer Service and asking them to change the name. I know this because the YDNA project I joined displayed my own name which is different than the kit donor. They changed the display name to one I requested.
                      Thanks! I have solved the problem just by coding the name in the account details.

                      I understand the desire for privacy, and I certainly don't have a judgement in this debate at all, but it seems to me that our DNA is by definition very "personal" information at the deepest level, and someone who might be uncomfortable sharing aspects of information that promotes this investigation might feel better sticking to paper genealogy. I say this with the caveat that experienced genealogists tend to be excellent "private investigators" and able to ferret out information on a level with top law enforcement operatives. My point is that maintaining "privacy" in the face of a determined genealogist in ANY genealogical method is likely to be an excercise in futility.
                      I'm one of those excellent private investigator type family historians. They can run and they can hide, but usually I'll find 'em. At the moment, I'm in the process of helping a church in another city track down living relations of the men listed in the congregation's WWI roll of honour, having just discovered that my great-uncle is on their list, unbeknownst to my family, and was one of the names about whom they knew nothing.

                      The thing is that information is only "personal" when it is identifying: my address, by itself -- say, 12345 Main Street, Toronto, if there were such a place -- isn't personal information, it's just a piece of data. When associated with my name or my telephone number, it becomes personal information. One's name, of course, when associated with anything at all, is personal information.

                      A string of numbers expressing the kind of DNA information we are dealing with here isn't personal information unless it is associated with something else, like the name or other personal details about the person whose DNA it is. An ancestral name could be enough to disclose that piece of information, if not directly then by an indirect method: for instance, if I were to post something on the internet about the ancestor in question, and I were identifiable by what I posted. I'm careful not to disclose enough ancestral information publicly that this could likely be done. Once again, it is disclosed privately when I am satisfied there is a sufficient assurance of confidentiality, if necessary for the details in question, and when there is a reason to do so.

                      I disclosed my own name and birth details and those of my parents to someone a few years ago -- the very first cousin (we share greatx2 grandparents) I found on line at a genealogy site. We became very friendly and were sharing many stories about our families -- my grandparent and her grandparent had both immigrated to North America from England decades before, and in fact lived within some 200 miles of each other for the whole time they were living and never knew it, which was awfully sad because my grandparent had been isolated from family back home for all that time, and in fact we had practically driven past the cousin's home several times on vacations.

                      I have spent this summer trying to get total strangers to remove the names and birth dates and places of myself and my parents from their online trees. The information I had shared with my new cousin in what I thought were private conversations about our families got passed on to whomever she decided to give her family tree to; some people I contacted with my request didn't even know who I was or how we were related.

                      Nobody who takes these things seriously puts identifying information about living people on line, or otherwise makes it available to the general public or to third parties without permission, but some people just don't give a damn. (I noticed that in one case at least, the person who had my family info in their tree had carefully marked their own living relations "private".) Once burned, twice shy, in my case.

                      Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck!
                      And I thank you! Slower going than I had hoped, so far, but I'm working on catching my knowledge about what I'm seeing up to what I'm seeing, figuring out what the next steps are, and still getting help from various quarters that I still appreciate very much.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Ha....drunk are we? You are a strange person! I do not drink nor do I use drugs. I am a 72 year old former Special Agent with the US Justice Department. I am also adopted and I am using my DNA research to attempt to find out something about my peoples history. Without a persons name, everything else is totally worthless. As I said before...I do not care if you give any info out about yourself but if you wish to withhold it, then leave me and my information alone.
                        Period! ... and the end of my part in this very strange and verbose discussion.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I have no idea why you or anyone else wants to pretend I was speaking to or about you. But it's the internet, and one "discussion" forum is much like another, be the subject genetic genealogy or government corruption. Some people evidently just have a need to be rude. Hey: you have your concerns and I have mine. As I said, I haven't the remotest interest in yours, and since you seem to have no interest in mine, I'm sure you will find something more productive to do with your time.

                          If anybody ever wants to have a genuine discussion about privacy concerns in relation to genetic or any other sort of genealogy -- you know, the kind of thing that involves paying attention to what other people say and having the common decency to consider it and address it -- you have my number.

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