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  • #16
    Originally posted by ScooterCat View Post
    Count_tested = Total number of people tested for the SNP
    Count_derived = Number of people who tested positive (derived=positive) for the SNP
    So, a testsequence of first testing positive to DF27, and then testing negative to Z196 and at then testing positive to L881, will first increase both "Count_derived", and "Count_tested" by one for DF27, and later increase "Count_tested" only, by one for Z196. Last, both "Count_derived", and "Count_tested" will be increased by one when the results from the L881 test comes in.


    ________________DF27 Z196 L86.2 L194 L612 L2131 L1245 L1246 L881
    Count_derived: ___108 __87 __3 _____1 ___4 ____1 ___1 ___2 ____8
    Count_tested: ___144 __423 _83 ___674 _317 ___77 __80 __79 __108

    Now, all of the SNPs listed to the left of DF27, are under DF27, so testing downward from DF27, one should test Z196, L881, L86.2, L1246, L1231,L1232 L612 and last L194, and in that order.

    If the above understanding is correct, I can not understand why testing L194 comes up as the most freqenent tested SNP under DF27. Even 4 times more frequent than DF27 itself, and with a hit rate of only one to 674....

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Juulsen View Post
      So, a testsequence of first testing positive to DF27, and then testing negative to Z196 and at then testing positive to L881, will first increase both "Count_derived", and "Count_tested" by one for DF27, and later increase "Count_tested" only, by one for Z196. Last, both "Count_derived", and "Count_tested" will be increased by one when the results from the L881 test comes in.
      Exactly.

      Originally posted by Juulsen View Post
      ________________DF27 Z196 L86.2 L194 L612 L2131 L1245 L1246 L881
      Count_derived: ___108 __87 __3 _____1 ___4 ____1 ___1 ___2 ____8
      Count_tested: ___144 __423 _83 ___674 _317 ___77 __80 __79 __108

      Now, all of the SNPs listed to the left of DF27, are under DF27, so testing downward from DF27, one should test Z196, L881, L86.2, L1246, L1231,L1232 L612 and last L194, and in that order.

      If the above understanding is correct, I can not understand why testing L194 comes up as the most freqenent tested SNP under DF27. Even 4 times more frequent than DF27 itself, and with a hit rate of only one to 674....
      No idea on that one. Selecting SNPs to be tested is not an exact science by any stretch, but is often guided by clusters identified by STR testing. I'm not at all familiar with R1b-P312>DF27, but maybe people are just looking for an SNP to break them out of DF27*. That would be a question better answered by a project administrator. Looks like there's a Yahoo group for R1b-P312 that might be worth checking out:
      http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/

      Comment


      • #18
        Thanks SkooterCat, I will try;

        http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-P312-Project/

        Also, concerning my table;

        Count_derived: ___108 __87 __3 _____1 ___4 ____1 ___1 ___2 ____8
        Count_tested: ___144 __423 _83 ___674 _317 ___77 __80 __79 __108

        It is of cause all of the SNPs listed to the right of DF27, that are under DF27. So testing downward from DF27, one should test Z196, L881, L86.2, L1246, L1231,L1232 L612 and last L194, and in that order.

        Maybe testing DF27 will become a permanent SNP to be tested under the FamilytreeDNAs "Deep Clade" product, since it is identified as a big clade, sided to L21 and almost as old as P312...

        Comment


        • #19
          I think that the choice of which SNPs to test for should be guided by which SNP is positive for those people you are genetically close to. For example, if you have five 67 marker matches at GD=0 that tested positive for a specific SNP, it is more likely that you will also test positive for that SNP. Save yourself $29 for each SNP that you don't have to test for. This is why it's important to join your relevant project, such as the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Juulsen View Post
            ...
            Secondly, I have considered to either order the Geno2.0, or apply for WTY.
            ...
            What may I hope for, if I get a WTY?
            As I understand WTY, candidates, a minimum of two, need to match one another on Y SNP's. Then they are tested 'downstream' of the terminal SNP for any divergence, or a new SNP.

            You would be an interesting candidate as your STR's are unlike any other, but do you match on SNP's with others?

            I would urge you to talk to your project admin about further testing. I don't know if he or she will advise Geno 2.0 as I have read some of the chip Y primers are not performing reliably.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Juulsen View Post
              ...
              What may I hope for, if I get a WTY?
              ...
              You can hope to advance general understanding of Y as a whole and the place of your particular flavor of Y on the Y tree.

              FTDNA can only afford to test a certain number of bases for each WTY and there is no guarantee that Walk will turn-up a new SNP. But even such a negative result is useful.

              Most likely, you will not solve your mystery. Most likely your mystery will be deepened. In other words, WTY would be worth it!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ScooterCat View Post
                I think that the choice of which SNPs to test for should be guided by which SNP is positive for those people you are genetically close to. For example, if you have five 67 marker matches at GD=0 that tested positive for a specific SNP, it is more likely that you will also test positive for that SNP. Save yourself $29 for each SNP that you don't have to test for. This is why it's important to join your relevant project, such as the R1b-P312 & Subclades Project.
                I agree to this if you can find a testers you are genetically close to. However, for many us DF27+ that is not the case. Maybe you can hope that DF27 will become an integral part FamilytreeDNAs "Deep Clade" package. Myself, are testing thru the subcled to DF27, and are now in for L881 and L86.2. The results will likely come in first week in January.

                When it comes to gentic distance, I have three 30/37 matches, - McKimmon, Trott and Marshall. I had one 28/32(Genetree) and asked if he consider testing DF27, but he was U152, so that did not make sense. Being a member of the Norway project, all other testers there are mileage away from my results. My “DYS391=26” is also quite rare, and to my knowledge, no one has tested this value in Norway-project, besides me..

                But WTY might be a good alternative…

                _____________________________
                R1b1a2a1a1b P312+ DF27+ Z196- U152- M65- M160- M153- M126- L96- L617- L4- L226- L21- L20- L196- L193- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L144-

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Juulsen View Post
                  ...

                  When it comes to genetic distance, I have three 30/37 matches, - ...
                  Wow, I have one exact match at 67 markers, and four 1-step matches. I have four surname matches within 3 steps.

                  Good luck in your testing.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                    As I understand WTY, candidates, a minimum of two, need to match one another on Y SNP's. Then they are tested 'downstream' of the terminal SNP for any divergence, or a new SNP.

                    You would be an interesting candidate as your STR's are unlike any other, but do you match on SNP's with others?

                    I would urge you to talk to your project admin about further testing. I don't know if he or she will advise Geno 2.0 as I have read some of the chip Y primers are not performing reliably.
                    I would love to do the WTY but too scared that it would be a waste of money since there is a chance that you will get NO RESULTS, and not re-tested if it fails. $1,000 is a lot to gamble

                    I'm curious now that you say they need two people...
                    Would there be a better chance of "better results" with the second person being related or not?
                    1. My father?
                    2, A 4th cousin along the surname line?
                    3. Or just another member of my project?

                    I have no Y-DNA matches above 2 steps at 25.
                    Zero at 37 and 67. 111 is due in a couple weeks but not expecting any matches, I just ordered it to aid in research.
                    My surname line is my big brick wall.

                    Thanks

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Neves View Post
                      I'm curious now that you say they need two people...
                      WTY doesn't really require 2 people. If your WTY finds any new SNP at all, FTDNA should (within a few weeks) make that new SNP available for order. Anyone who comes close to matching you can and should then order the SNP test.

                      The most important point about the WTY is that it may soon be obsolete. At least one company is now offering full Y chromosome sequencing for only a little more than the cost of a WTY. Unfortunately, the company is only accepting members of haplogroups C, D, and G right now. (That is because a volunteer expert has agreed to interpret results in those haplogroups; the company itself has no such interpreters.)
                      Originally posted by Neves View Post
                      I have no Y-DNA matches above 2 steps at 25.
                      Zero at 37 and 67. 111 is due in a couple weeks but not expecting any matches, I just ordered it to aid in research.
                      On your Y-DNA Matches page, set the Markers to 37 and the Steps to 7, then click the Run Report button. Do you get any distant matches this way?

                      When your upgrade to 111 markers is complete, you will be able to do the same thing out to 10 steps.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Neves View Post
                        I have no Y-DNA matches above 2 steps at 25.
                        Zero at 37 and 67. 111 is due in a couple weeks but not expecting any matches, I just ordered it to aid in research.
                        My surname line is my big brick wall.
                        Like you, I could not find any testers close to my 37 STR marker panels. I am member of the Norway project, but my closest match here is 26/37. When I joined the P312 project, I was advised to take a 111-marker test. I am far off most of the testers here too.

                        I am eager to contribute to knowledge for further exploration of DF27, but before spending money on it, I want to know what we’re looking for..

                        But unlike you, I was able to overcome my “brick wall”.

                        My oldest paternal ancestor was born in 1823, but I was able to outline a few “suspect”. One lead me to US, where a parental descendant to one “suspect” was traced. This person was willing to test, and he came back with back with twelve marker only one GD away from mine (some of my 12 markers are quite rare, as DYS390=26, - only 1% of R1b has this allele). This was a fast moving allele. Of cause I wll safeguard the connection, by upgrading to 37 marker.

                        But still we have little knowledge about DF27 and where it originated, and except Z196. This clade is old, - almost as old as P312. I might test L1231 and Z220, but I do not leave it much chance for a positive hit.

                        _______________________________
                        R1b1a2a1a1b P312+ DF27+ L617- Z196- L881- L86.2- U152- M65- M160- M153- M126- L96- L4- L226- L21- L20- L196- L193- L176.2- L165- L159.2- L144-
                        Ysearch: 645BN

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          If you are Z196- there isn't any need to test Z220, or anything else that's downstream from Z196 (unless it's one of the rather uncommon SNPs that occurs in more than one haplogroup, or subclade). Have you looked at Mike Walsh's relevant "descendency tree"? Your best bet would be to keep testing something shown on that chart one level below whatever your terminal SNP is -- I guess, currently, DF27.

                          https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1...dency_Tree.jpg

                          If you could find someone in a big haplogroup (or even a little surname) project whose markers are relatively close to yours, and who has tested positive for one of the other currently known candidate SNPs, that SNP would be your best bet. The most obvious project to look in would be this one:

                          http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

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