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H-PH4549, possible discovery?

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  • H-PH4549, possible discovery?

    For a good many years, I had always believed there to be an emerging genetic pattern going on with some of the Y Haplogroup H - M82 participants.
    This potentially genetic pattern was first noticed by me many years ago before we had the Big Y test available, it all started with the H participants whom carried DYS425=0 null value marker mutation.

    Thanks to a limited small handful of H participants doing the Big Y 500 or Big Y 700 tests, I am now seeing better evidence of a potential genetic pattern that seemingly revolves around
    H-PH4549.

    There is one participant tested positive for H-PH4549 whom carries DYS425=0 null mutation.
    Every H Big Y participant whom carries DYS425=0 null, are in SNP's directly downstream of H-PH4549.

    Here is what I have found out.

    H-PH4549, carries DYS 425=0 null

    Downstream SNP's of H-PH4549:

    H-BY68126, carries DYS 425=0 null
    H-PH124, carries DYS 425=0 null
    H-BY153075, carries DYS 425=0 null
    H-BY224203, carries DYS 425 = 0 null
    H-FT26956, carries DYS 425=0 null
    H-PH2261, carries DYS 425=0 null

    Am I thinking about this correctly, that it appears H-PH4549 being the first H SNP proven to carry DYS425=0 null as being the parent SNP, and that every SNP downstream of H-PH4549 identified so far, has proven to also carry DYS425=0 null.

    Knowing that when a genetic marker mutates to a null value, any marker, it then MUST be passed down from father to sons, generation after generation as a null value mutation. That makes sense to me that every SNP downstream of H-PH4549 would have to then carry DYS425=0 null as longs as they shared a common male ancestor. Are we seeing that very thing being played out here?
    That from a single SNP whom just happens to carry DYS 425=0 null, being passed down through the generations to newly identified SNP's that are directly downstream of H-PH4549?

  • #2
    Since no one has responded, I thought I would include the H SNP tree to better indicate the SNP's that are carrying DYS425=0 null.
    I took a screen shot of the H tree and highlighted the SNP's that carry DYS425=0 null.

    I know I know, everyone says to ignore DYS425 being null as it is prone to mutating to a null value. But those whom have said that to me, clearly are not seeing the evidence like I am seeing it.
    To me this can not be a mere coincidence that starting with H-PH4549, every SNP downstream of H-PH4549 also carries DYS425=0 null, and to date, no other SNP with in the H tree is found carrying DYS425 as a null mutation, this null mutation appears to be specific to this specific branch of the H tree, and to me that has to have meaning. This new evidence seemingly seems to be suggesting that since the birth of H-PH4549, every SNP born downstream of H-PH4549 also carry this null mutation, which to me seems to highly suggest we are potentially looking at a very old single paternal lineage.

    What I did not explain in the first post, is that the H-PH4549 participant is Pakistani. The participants in the SNP's directly downstream, are all of Romani ancestry.

    H-PH4549, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Pakistan )

    Downstream SNP's of H-PH4549:

    H-BY68126, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Pakistan )

    H-PH124, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Romani )
    H-BY153075, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Romani )
    H-BY224203, carries DYS 425 = 0 null ( Romani )
    H-FT26956, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Romani )
    H-PH2261, carries DYS 425=0 null ( Romani )

    See there is already a pattern going on here, and that genetic pattern involves Romani Y DNA / SNP participants. It would be unfair to then say DYS 425 being null value has no real meaning, when there is a clear pattern going on here. To date, of the Romani Y DNA participants Y DNA tested to the 67 marker level, 100% carry DYS425 as a null value, and that there in of itself is a pattern in the evidence.

    Just because an SNP mutates, does not mean our STR's are resetting, and if there are any null mutations in the parent SNP generation, that null mutation then MUST be passed down to the next generation, even if the next generation has had an SNP mutation to a newly identified SNP downstream of the parent SNP, in this case the parent SNP appears to be H-PH4549 whom carries DYS425=0 null and every SNP born downstream of H-PH4549 all appear to carry the exact same null mutation.

    I have looked at the Y DNA / SNP participants whom are upstream of H-PH4549, and they do not carry DYS425 as a null mutation.


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    • #3
      Glad to see you're still here, Donald.

      Interesting map for PH4549 at Genetic Homeland. It shows results in the UK, Finland, and Macedonia.

      Stevo
      R1b-FGC36981
      Last edited by Stevo; 21 May 2021, 07:46 AM.

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      • #4
        Hi Stevo, yep I am still around!

        I have a new working theory as of this morning. There is clearly a pattern going on here with the H participants whom carry DYS425=0 null, and now I have to wonder if this is bigger then I had originally imagined.
        What if DYS425 being null value is not a random thing at all, but rather what if certain SNP's regardless which Y Haplo tree we are looking at whom also carry DYS425 as a null, would those SNP's also find the same pattern, that they all descended from the same parent SNP and every child SNP downstream of the parent SNP are then all proven to also carry DYS425 as a null value?

        DYS425 being null value, may not be as random as previously thought, because once it mutates to a null value, it MUST be passed down to the next male generation as a null mutation.
        So if what I have discovered with the H participants all being related to H-PH4549 with the DYS425 null mutation, it then makes sense to me that this same pattern found in the H participants would be the same pattern found in all other Y Haplogroups whom also carry DYS425 as a null mutation, that they are all descended from the same parent SNP and being passed down as a null mutation to all the children SNP's downstream of the parent SNP..

        Does that make sense? And if that new working theory of mine proves to pan out, we could potentially be looking at multiple single paternal lineages in various Y Haplogroups whom all descended from a single common male ancestor. The only way to find out is to look at each Y Haplogroup known to carry DYS425 as a null mutation, to see if the same pattern applies to those SNP's, that there is a Parent SNP that carries DYS425 as a null, and to see if every Child SNP directly downstream also carry DYS425 as a null mutation, and if they do, that makes it a pattern in the evidence as I see things.

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        • #5
          Makes sense to me. I seem to remember a subclade of R1b-U106 that had something similar.

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