Big Y and New SNP Panels . . .

[John]

I purchased the Big Y test and have my results. I am I-L338 . . . or was as of the status of the haplotree when my data came in.

Now there are updates to the haplotree. I'm making an assumption that much of the updates are due to the analysis of the Big Y tests. Today I logged into my account and found an ad on my haplotree page offering to test 53 SNPs downstream of S12289 for only $99! "Thats 53 for the price of 3"

That sounds good, doesn't it?

Well . . . no it doesn't. Not good at all.

I purchased the Big Y, remember? My data from the Big Y already has those SNPs and can tell whether I am + or - for them.
..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... .....

One of the sales pitches for the Big Y was that it should be the last test anybody would ever need for Y DNA. So why is this SNP Panel being offered on my haplotree page? Why aren't those SNPs updated to show what the Big Y found?

Something ain't right here.

[BBA64]

I know some of the SNP panels have updated as a result of Big Y (via project admins), but I cannot determine this at all when I'm on the /y-dna-haplotree page and look to see the updates.

So FTDNA is marketing additional testing towards Big Y participants who don't need it, yet missing opportunities to get others who may want to do SNP panel (or singular) tests to participate...

[lgmayka]

So why is this SNP Panel being offered on my haplotree page? Why aren't those SNPs updated to show what the Big Y found?

You bring up two completely different issues.

1) I heartily agree that as soon as a new SNP is "blessed" (becomes part of the official FTDNA haplotree), any Big Y participants who have tested positive for that SNP should be shown as such.

2) Your complaint about advertising for a service you don't need is, frankly, utterly unrealistic. Do you really think that after you have bought a new car, the manufacturer will take care to make sure you do not see another new car ad for at least two years? Of course not! The minute you buy a new car, your dealer starts sending you solicitations to buy another one.

It is the nature of a consumerist economy that businesses are constantly advertising to us goods and services we do not need. It is presumed to be the consumer's job to maintain sales resistance at all times. This applies all the more to Big Y participants, who are presumed to be the most savvy of all FTDNA's customers.

I don't mean to "rag" on you personally. But I have seen the same complaint several times in different forums, and I am mystified as to why customers should think that FTDNA would act any differently from every other American business that bombards us with advertisements every waking minute.

In fact, charities do essentially the same thing, and for the same obvious reason. Charities advertise most to those who have just given money, on the (correct!) theory that those who have most recently given are also those most likely to give again. In volunteer work, it is a truism that the best person to ask to take on a new volunteer responsibility is the person who has already volunteered the most.

[BBA64]

You are missing the point

If the Big Y test has already covered the SNPs that being advertised to this person to test again, then spending additional money for something you already have is at best just sloppy data analysis. Why should one spend money on a more limited test for which you already have the results?

This isn't advertising to buy another/different car from the one you just got. And neither is and ad to buy a DIFFERENT DNA test to cover something NOT tested by Big Y.

[John]

uhmmmm . . . no, that isn't it

[QUOTE=lgmayka;412086]
"2) Your complaint about advertising for a service you don't need is, frankly, utterly unrealistic. Do you really think that after you have bought a new car, the manufacturer will take care to make sure you do not see another new car ad for at least two years? Of course not! The minute you buy a new car, your dealer starts sending you solicitations to buy another one."

Your grasp of the question I asked is, frankly, utterly no where near correct. Using your analogy what they are doing is placing an ad on my page selling me the exact same car, or at least pieces of it.

[BBA64]

Your grasp of the question I asked is, frankly, utterly no where near correct. Using your analogy what they are doing is placing an ad on my page selling me the exact same car, or at least pieces of it.

And not even pieces of it - it's like trying to get you to buy the front seat you already have in the car you just bought. You don't even get a extra copy if you were foolish enough to get another one.

[lgmayka]

And not even pieces of it - it's like trying to get you to buy the front seat you already have in the car you just bought.

False. You two apparently don't understand the technology or other issues involved at all.

FTDNA has specifically told us that the new SNP Packs use a technology different from either Sanger sequencing (used for individual SNP tests) or Next Generation Sequencing (used for the Big Y). It is theoretically quite reasonable for an eager expert to order a SNP Pack in order to compare this technology against the other two.

But more importantly:

- SNP Packs vary. Although some are composed entirely from Big Y results, other SNP Packs include SNPs discovered by FullGenomes or BritainsDNA which are not covered by the Big Y. This is another reason that an eager customer might order a SNP Pack even if he already has Big Y results.

- Big Y results vary widely. As every potential Big Y customer ought to know before purchasing, the Big Y is guaranteed to examine at least a particular number of locations (e.g., 10 million), but not any specific location. Once again, an eager customer might see one or two obscure SNPs in a SNP Pack that were not covered--or poorly covered--in his particular Big Y run (and not available as individual SNP tests either), and order the SNP Pack for that reason.

I am not recommending SNP Packs generally to Big Y customers. But I have outlined three specific reasons that a particularly eager Big Y customer might indeed wish to order a SNP Pack.

By the way: The best guess I've seen is that SNP Packs use microarrays--the same technology used for Geno 2.0 and Chromo2, although apparently with an unprecedented new degree of customization flexibility that permits even very-low-volume sales to be profitable.

[BBA64]

Why didn't you explain this the first time?

False. You two apparently don't understand the technology or other issues involved at all.

This is a much different answer than your "not meaning to rag on you" answer about consumerism and marketing. This would have been a far more appropriate answer from the outset.

Perhaps you should enlighten project managers to this? This is NOT the message they are giving, at least in the R1b-related projects that I've been a part of (and some of these admins really know their stuff - but apparently not at your elevated level).

Cheers!

[lgmayka]

This would have been a far more appropriate answer from the outset.

You're right.

Perhaps you should enlighten project managers to this? This is NOT the message they are giving, at least in the R1b-related projects that I've been a part of (and some of these admins really know their stuff - but apparently not at your elevated level).

The more experienced project administrators have at least as much knowledge as I do about these matters. But I see a big difference between
- The message to give project members vs.
- The message to send to FTDNA.

I myself tell project members that "the Big Y is essentially the last Y chromosome test you will ever need." If ever a SNP Pack becomes available in a Central-Eastern European haplogroup, I will tell my own project members that "in general, Big Y participants do not need a SNP Pack--you may help your investigation more by buying a SNP Pack for one of your near-matches."

I certainly agree that:
- When FTDNA adds a new SNP to its official haplotree, via a SNP Pack or otherwise, FTDNA should add the corresponding Big Y results for that SNP (if any) to customer accounts.
- FTDNA should give project administrators prior notice when introducing a new SNP Pack so that they are ready to answer questions about its usefulness.
- FTDNA should mention, in the description of each SNP Pack, that customers are encouraged to consult an administrator to confirm the usefulness of the SNP Pack in their case.

But I do not think that our primary message to FTDNA should be, "Don't tell us about SNP Packs. Don't show them to us or advertise them to us. Don't let us buy them at all." One might say that I prefer an information-based approach to a nanny-state approach.

By the way, I thought of one more major reason that a Big Y participant might order a SNP Pack. In order to list a new full-fledged (not italicized) SNP, current ISOGG rules require either Sanger sequencing (individual SNP tests) or a combination of next-generation sequencing and microarray results. Next-generation sequencing (e.g., the Big Y) is not sufficient to list a full-fledged SNP on ISOGG's haplotree. Thus, a Big Y participant who is particularly eager to get his newly discovered SNP on ISOGG's tree might reasonably order a SNP Pack, in order to obtain the evidence necessary for full-fledged listing.

[BBA64]

But I do not think that our primary message to FTDNA should be, "Don't tell us about SNP Packs. Don't show them to us or advertise them to us. Don't let us buy them at all." One might say that I prefer an information-based approach to a nanny-state approach.

I would agree with you on that. The proper information should accompany the advertisement (devil in the details). Even as you said, you pretty much tell folks in your project, the Big Y is the last test you'll need. And suddenly and ad appears suggesting testing you about which you just thought you had already gotten the definitive word. That's the primary complaint in the OP.

It would be helpful to update project admins on the details of incoming panel tests, too. What I find interesting is the relatively detailed explanations from admins the last few days detailing more about the Big Y is (and isn't) and why folks should consider outlaying the significant funds to test that way. This is far more helpful than just telling folks to get a Big Y test done.

[RDickinson]

I don't think it's possible to repeat this too many times:

- When FTDNA adds a new SNP to its official haplotree, via a SNP Pack or otherwise, FTDNA should add the corresponding Big Y results for that SNP (if any) to customer accounts.

...But the following--well, for me, at least, this is not a repetition at all, but a succinct summary of new information I have not come across before. I can only say "really???" and "that certainly explains a few things":

By the way, I thought of one more major reason that a Big Y participant might order a SNP Pack. In order to list a new full-fledged (not italicized) SNP, current ISOGG rules require either Sanger sequencing (individual SNP tests) or a combination of next-generation sequencing and microarray results. Next-generation sequencing (e.g., the Big Y) is not sufficient to list a full-fledged SNP on ISOGG's haplotree. Thus, a Big Y participant who is particularly eager to get his newly discovered SNP on ISOGG's tree might reasonably order a SNP Pack, in order to obtain the evidence necessary for full-fledged listing.

[John]

A few facts and opinions . . .

I've waited to make sure I have the proper information on at least the L338 panel and the Big Y results. According to the analysis of the panel and my Big Y results: " . . . your Big-Y covered ALL of the SNPs listed on the panel, so you've already tested for them all. You are negative for almost all of them as they mostly refer to A376+ members much further down the L338+ Tree, not your end of the tree . . ." Another project member was told "another ******* kin has paid $98 to test this A376+ Panel ... all he'll get for his money is to test one useful new SNP, S12289 and he will most likely be negative for that. All the rest of the SNPs tested on the panel are irrelevant, he'll be negative for them all. For his money, he won't even be testing your new SNP A1944".

Paying $98 dollars to test the unknown in order to advance the science is one thing, but paying the same amount to test already known facts is nonsense.

So once again I'll assert that it almost certainly does not make sense for FTDNA to advertise the SNP panels on the pages of those who have done the Big Y, and what should happen is the Haplotree for those who have done Big Y should be updated to show which SNPs in the panel have a "+" result according to the Big Y. And I'll add this suggestion, when FTDNA is looking to put together these SNP panels they should consult with the project leaders whose 'territory' is involved.

[boutrosdu93]

so are the snps really the same or note? as the other member seemed to imply it'not the same testing methodology i'm confused...

[John]

Are the SNPs really the same or note?

so are the snps really the same or note? as the other member seemed to imply it'not the same testing methodology i'm confused...

Yes, they are the same. The bit about the differing methodologies is close to a red herring; while the Big Y and the SNP panels use different tech to look at the SNP locations they are still looking at the same locations.

Look up Paris on a paper map, then look up Paris on a GPS. Same Paris in the end, is it note or not?

PS: Hope you don't mind my play with your typo, I found it amusing in the context of the question.

[boutrosdu93]

ahahah no worries have fun i'd rather you play with my typos than ftdna plays with custommers money....

mmm ok anyway i'll wait for my results to come thanks bro.