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Pictish Discovery?

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  • Pictish Discovery?

    Prof Jim Wilson, who discovered S389, has kindly spent some valuable time analysing a number of S389+ testees. He points out that some 0.5% of British men are in the R1b-S389 group, and feels it should be included on ISOGG's tree. He has seen 33 surnames that have S389 so far.
    Jim states that it is "very Eastern Scottish, focused on central Scotland & Aberdeenshire, with instances in Fife & E Lothian". He states that "The frequency distribution is a classic signature of Pictish type".
    Jim suggests that S389+ testees get involved in Big Y or FGC chromosome testing to pinpoint the precise age of S389.He finishes by saying "If Y sequencing gives a young date, this looks to be another Pictish group! At the very least, it was carried by people who lived in what we now call Scotland, 2,000 or however many years ago."
    I obtained Jim's permission to post his views.
    Cheers,
    Bob (S389+)

  • #2
    Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
    Prof Jim Wilson, who discovered S389, has kindly spent some valuable time analysing a number of S389+ testees. He points out that some 0.5% of British men are in the R1b-S389 group, and feels it should be included on ISOGG's tree. He has seen 33 surnames that have S389 so far.
    Jim states that it is "very Eastern Scottish, focused on central Scotland & Aberdeenshire, with instances in Fife & E Lothian". He states that "The frequency distribution is a classic signature of Pictish type".
    Jim suggests that S389+ testees get involved in Big Y or FGC chromosome testing to pinpoint the precise age of S389.He finishes by saying "If Y sequencing gives a young date, this looks to be another Pictish group! At the very least, it was carried by people who lived in what we now call Scotland, 2,000 or however many years ago."
    I obtained Jim's permission to post his views.
    Cheers,
    Bob (S389+)
    Did Jim say that only those who are S389+ are descended from the Picts?

    Comment


    • #3
      No. Jim mentioned that R1b-S735 is a classic signature of Pictish type. I gather R1b-S735 is more common than S389. The interesting point is that, so far, most of the S389+ testees have some sort of link to N E Scotland.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
        No. Jim mentioned that R1b-S735 is a classic signature of Pictish type. I gather R1b-S735 is more common than S389. The interesting point is that, so far, most of the S389+ testees have some sort of link to N E Scotland.
        To find out the dna of the Picts they would have to do some testing on ancient remains considered to be Picts. So how would the achieve that? The Picts were a mysterious people.

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't have access to the data, so can't accurately comment. However, it is extraordinary just how N E Scottish S389 appears to be. Big Y & FGC will hopefully more accurately pinpoint the age of S389. It's going to be interesting to see if it falls within a 'Pictish' timeframe, or is even older.
          I was categorized as 'Beaker Folk' origins, and many suggest that they were the Picts' ancestors.
          I think the label isn't as important as the fact that S389 appears to be ancient Scottish.
          As ever, more testees would be useful, but so far, I'm told, no S389 has been found on the continent of Europe.
          Finally,Jim stated that he "didn't expect (his detailed analysis of S389) to be so exciting!". I take that to mean this has the potential to be extremely meaningful - particularly for Scotland.
          Last edited by bob armstrong; 1st January 2015, 04:22 AM.

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          • #6
            What older SNPs are upstream from S389? U106? P312? etc.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's under R-P312+, but not sure precisely where yet. S389 is known, in FTDNA's parlance, as L624. I'm L21-, L176.2-, Z196-, DF27-, Z245-, L459-.
              Hope to get a more accurate idea of S389 once a few of us who are positive have Big Y or FMG results to compare.

              Comment


              • #8
                Wild Speculation

                It seems the flow of wild speculation from Mr. Wilson continues, with no basis in fact to the picts. There are other SNPs that have been in Scotland far longer but I guess since they don't match Wilson, they can't be possible candidates. There is no evidence these snps are picts, they are probably Normans who settled in NE Scotland, not even really Scottish

                Comment


                • #9
                  LOST PICTS ?

                  It is my understanding that S.P. Chromo 2 predicts S530 as the Pictish signature and this equates to L1335 in FTNDA terms.
                  Downstream Pict Clans it is argued are within: CTS11722> L1065 > S744

                  With MacGregors and their ILK being S691 S695 S690 and terminal S696 for the current Chief.

                  If Dr Wilson is correct regarding the 10% of Scottish men = L1335 / S530 and only Zero point eight of Englishmen 0.8% then we all will look forward to future peer review outcomes.

                  The MacGregors are said to descend from the House of Alpin - Kenneth McAlpin- The so named 'Pictish Kingdom' 840 CE- 1030 circa in Alba .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AncientCelt View Post
                    It seems the flow of wild speculation from Mr. Wilson continues, with no basis in fact to the picts. There are other SNPs that have been in Scotland far longer but I guess since they don't match Wilson, they can't be possible candidates. There is no evidence these snps are picts, they are probably Normans who settled in NE Scotland, not even really Scottish
                    Well said. Dr Wilson lives in fantasy island.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      An argument pict apart?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Fantasy

                        Not sure how you go about arguing against someones fantasy and wishful thinking but they continue to post this rubbish with zero basis in fact other than a few guys migrated to an area perhaps a pict lived, although no one has a clue what haplotype the picts were. I guess it ok to dream, it seems to be they are the only ones buying into this so, fair enough.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Alexandrina View Post
                          It is my understanding that S.P. Chromo 2 predicts S530 as the Pictish signature and this equates to L1335 in FTNDA terms.
                          Downstream Pict Clans it is argued are within: CTS11722> L1065 > S744

                          With MacGregors and their ILK being S691 S695 S690 and terminal S696 for the current Chief.

                          If Dr Wilson is correct regarding the 10% of Scottish men = L1335 / S530 and only Zero point eight of Englishmen 0.8% then we all will look forward to future peer review outcomes.

                          The MacGregors are said to descend from the House of Alpin - Kenneth McAlpin- The so named 'Pictish Kingdom' 840 CE- 1030 circa in Alba .
                          Problem here is, McAlpin wasn't a pict, he was Dal Riata and attacked the picts, so keep flipping rocks there and maybe something will "turnip".

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AncientCelt View Post
                            Problem here is, McAlpin wasn't a pict, he was Dal Riata and attacked the picts, so keep flipping rocks there and maybe something will "turnip".
                            If you read Bede and Gildas you'll see they approach the subject with a certain bias. Later works by Skene etc are worth reading, but the modern writers such as McHardy, Clarkson & Cummins offer more balanced views.
                            Davit Broun, in 2008, wrote that Cinaed mac Alpin's descendants may have been in origin a Pictish royal lineage, but simply had a Dal Riata lineage attached.

                            Some of the Pictish and Scottish King lists have additions which were made centuries later. W. A. Cummins goes to great lengths to highlight the anomalies.

                            'AncientCelt' you posted that 'McAlpin wasn't a Pict'. Modern experts aren't sure, so do you have proof that he wasn't? I'd be fascinated to see any facts to back your claim.

                            Big Y results are showing some fascinating links between surnames & locations which MAY prove vital. I suggest everyone keeps an open mind.
                            Last edited by bob armstrong; 19th February 2015, 09:19 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bob armstrong View Post
                              If you read Bede and Gildas you'll see they approach the subject with a certain bias. Later works by Skene etc are worth reading, but the modern writers such as McHardy, Clarkson & Cummins offer more balanced views.
                              Davit Broun, in 2008, wrote that Cinaed mac Alpin's descendants may have been in origin a Pictish royal lineage, but simply had a Dal Riata lineage attached.

                              Some of the Pictish and Scottish King lists have additions which were made centuries later. W. A. Cummins goes to great lengths to highlight the anomalies.

                              'AncientCelt' you posted that 'McAlpin wasn't a Pict'. Modern experts aren't sure, so do you have proof that he wasn't? I'd be fascinated to see any facts to back your claim.

                              Big Y results are showing some fascinating links between surnames & locations which MAY prove vital. I suggest everyone keeps an open mind.
                              Were the Picts indigenous Scots or immigrants from Continental Europe?

                              Comment

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