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  • Norman Ancestry SNP?

    Hello Everyone,

    I was wondering which new SNP I could test for that denotes Norman ancestry?

    I am pretty sure my Norman ancestors went to Wales and then went to Ireland. Currently my haplogroup is SRY2627.

    Thanks for your time :}

    David

  • #2
    Terminology: Norse vs. Norman. Norse went to Ireland and some to Wales and etc. Normans were a blend of Norse, Danes, and the local Gallo-Romans and Carolingians, etc. Normans went to Wales and Ireland after the conquest in 1066. Well, that's the way it looks to me, superficially.

    Comment


    • #3
      Good move there :} I should have included a brief history. As as I know,the Normans were a collection of different tribes of people.

      I am hoping to find a SNP to test. Currently my paper trail, autosomal DNA, and y-DNA practically scream Ireland which all together matches my surname history. Part of me has my doubts, thus I am seeking more clarification.

      thanks much,

      David

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi David.

        At this stage it's not really possible however that situation will slowly change for some people. A number of SRY2627 people have taken the BIgY and their results are still coming through. In a few months time when the results are better analysed there should be an explosion in understanding of SRY2627 and potentially hundreds of new sub branches discovered. In some cases those results might mean the older subclades from 2, 3 and 4 thousand years ago can be worked down to the time of the conquest and even into the last few hundred years. This process will take time and with luck it may be possible in the immediate future to start to attribute certain recent SNP's to actual individuals in family trees.

        If your STR markers are close to fellow SRY2627 people who have taken BigY you might get lucky and get a new SNP's to test. What we don't know yet is how recently in time FTDNA and others will want to produce individual SNP tests for it may not be cost effective for them to develop tests for say SNP's that were 'born' in the last 1,000 years.

        Earl.

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        • #5
          I doubt you'll find any. Unless one can dig up known Norman individuals and test their remains, by now the general population of the area will all have some said ancestry in their background that simple population studies are not going to be able to give a causal relationship.

          If you are really intent on proving Norse or Norman ancestry, I suppose a Y match to a known pedigree would be the best way.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DavdJ View Post
            Hello Everyone,

            I was wondering which new SNP I could test for that denotes Norman ancestry?

            I am pretty sure my Norman ancestors went to Wales and then went to Ireland. Currently my haplogroup is SRY2627.

            Thanks for your time :}

            David
            It isn't possible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DavdJ View Post
              Hello Everyone,

              I was wondering which new SNP I could test for that denotes Norman ancestry?

              I am pretty sure my Norman ancestors went to Wales and then went to Ireland. Currently my haplogroup is SRY2627.

              Thanks for your time :}

              David
              David -

              If you have not already done so, please join the SRY2627+/L176.2+/Z198+ and DF27+ and Subclades projects.

              Stephen

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                It isn't possible.

                It might be.

                Hypothetical Example.

                Following full sequencing say you match a descendant of Ralph Fitzherbert (or anyone else with a close as you can get established Norman ancestry) and the full sequence results say this match was probably within the last 600-700 years.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Fitzherbert

                If your full sequence results show you are related to an individual like this in the period since the conquest you have a pretty firm (not saying definite) indication of Norman ancestry.

                Big Y and similar tests will start to allow people to see roughly how distantly they are related to those lucky people who ancestors were prominent enough to have pedigrees beyond the last few hundred years.

                Earl.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Doing this sort of thing is likely not impossible for
                  some lucky people. It's what we are trying to
                  do in the Clan Donald, starting with R1a, but eventually
                  with R1b-L21 also.

                  The idea is to find people who have reliable paper trails
                  in the pure Y line back 1000 years or more. You need
                  multiple trails back to the same root person that far ago.
                  Then you look in BigY or full genomes tests for,
                  first, SNPs that appear in some descendants but not others.
                  If a new testee has one of these on the correct haploty[pe
                  base (so not a parallel mutation) then they KNOW
                  for 100% certain they descend from the root. Second,
                  you look for SNPs that are common to all descendants,
                  don't appear commonly in people in the general
                  population, and don't appear in large numbers (i.e. you ideally want just one SNP, and 5 is clearly a no-go)
                  and finally ideally don't appear in a descendant
                  of an earlier known ancestor of your root. These
                  latter SNPs or SNP will clearly indicate that a person
                  comes from roughly the time and place of your root.

                  That's the methodology. In the Clan Donald we so
                  far have of 2 of 15 BigY testees (plus two more
                  at Full Genomes) done both of who are in the "time and place" category, and they have the right number of
                  SNPs not in common, or maybe just a bit too many.
                  This is good news. SNPs like these WILL eventually
                  be offered for sale separately.

                  Of course, you need a root with lots of male-line
                  descendants.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Both my paternal line and maternal line are Norman. My paternal Line is L21 and my maternal line is Haplogroup I (based on male cousins from that side. )
                    My family haplogroups seem to reflect the pattern of haplogroups in the Normandy project. That is, a higher than expected concentration of L21 and HapIogroup I. So I do not believe there is a particular Normandie marker. My subclade is L21>DF13>FGC5496 (not yet on the phylum tree). I share it with 5 % of males from Northern Wales (based on a study by a local researcher). Interesting enough the continental men show an early branching from the Isle men by about 2,800 years. All of this is limited by a few samples and may change as others join the group.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Earl Davis View Post
                      It might be.

                      Hypothetical Example.

                      Following full sequencing say you match a descendant of Ralph Fitzherbert (or anyone else with a close as you can get established Norman ancestry) and the full sequence results say this match was probably within the last 600-700 years.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Fitzherbert

                      If your full sequence results show you are related to an individual like this in the period since the conquest you have a pretty firm (not saying definite) indication of Norman ancestry.

                      Big Y and similar tests will start to allow people to see roughly how distantly they are related to those lucky people who ancestors were prominent enough to have pedigrees beyond the last few hundred years.

                      Earl.
                      If you were to dna test the bones of Strongbow how would it be proven that his ancestors came from Normandy in France?
                      The Norman army was made up of all sorts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Interesting, so there is hope :} I have a Joyce DNA cousin who is awaiting her big-y results. Would it be wise to await and see what SNP's she tested positive for before I choose a test?

                        thanks much,

                        David

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks for the heads up as well :}, Stephan Parrish. I just joined the DF27+ and Subclades project.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by DavdJ View Post
                            Interesting, so there is hope :} I have a Joyce DNA cousin who is awaiting her big-y results. Would it be wise to await and see what SNP's she tested positive for before I choose a test?

                            thanks much,

                            David
                            I would say there's hope, I think there would need to be proper testing of Norman remains to eliminate NPA's later down the line though. Anyone know of any actual Norman remains that have been tested?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              If it helps any, the SRY2627 was formed in the region of Southern France. With this in mind, it currently looks like my ancestors were in the region before the Normans. In fact, according to historical sources, the Joyce surname was based on a Breton Saint. Is there perhaps a SNP which is based on not on viking DNA per say but perhaps on Breton DNA?

                              thanks again,

                              David

                              Comment

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