V20 from Russia

[Ann Turner]

Dear Ann and Douglas,

finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

R0 G73A, A11720G
HV T14767C
HV0 T72C, T16300C
HV0a C15905T
V G4581A
V20 G8585A, C16258T

is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

What does it mean?

Thanks a lot for possible help

With respect,
Alexander

This is still a bit different than the conventions used by the genetic genealogy companies. One reason for the offset could be that you have an insertion compared to the CRS. There's one very common one, 315.1C (where the CRS has a rare version). If your source just keeps on counting bases, that would move the position of subsequent markers. There's also a convention to skip over an error that introduced a new base in the original CRS sequence at about 3107 (from memory). Technically, the genetic genealogy companies compare your results to the rCRS (revised CRS).

All these insertions and deletions make it hard to do a one-to-one comparison of your numbers. Could your source give you a FASTA file? That lists your sequence base by base, and you can run the FASTA file with James Lick's utility to see how things would be numbered.

http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/

[DWFlineage]

Greetings

Dear Ann and Douglas,

finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

R0 G73A, A11720G
HV T14767C
HV0 T72C, T16300C
HV0a C15905T
V G4581A
V20 G8585A, C16258T

is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

What does it mean?

Thanks a lot for possible help

With respect,
Alexander

Alexander,

Glad that the experts got back to you. I learned something about my V19 group from Ann, that it is estimated 2700 years old. I believe Ann stated your V20 group is 5000 years back. Maybe Ann can give you more information. I had also thought that each haplogroup branched off from the previous one, but Ann explained its a "red herring", so I am still learning. I know that admin separated me from V19 folks by labeling me as V19a, because of my two heteroplasmies, but that is just for admin purposes. I would be interested to know how our two haplogroups are connected?

Best regards, Doug

Kit#122883

[Alexander]

New Data

Dear Ann and Douglas,

finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

R0 G73A, A11720G
HV T14767C
HV0 T72C, T16300C
HV0a C15905T
V G4581A
V20 G8585A, C16258T

is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

What does it mean?

Thanks a lot for possible help

With respect,
Alexander

[DWFlineage]

Thanks for that info

This gets kind of complicated. The ! means a reverse mutation. The CRS has a T at position 16298. Haplogroup V is defined by a C at that location. But as time went on, some branches of haplogroup V had a mutation at the very same location, so they have a T again. That means that 16298 won't show up on a list of differences from the CRS.

The age of a haplogroup is estimated by looking at the amount of variation that has accumulated since the clan mother started the branch. There aren't enough full mitochondrial sequences to have much confidence in the age, but FWIW, Behar gives these dates

V 9700 years
V19 2900 years
V20 5000 years

Ann,

Nice to know at least an estimate of V19 haplogroup. I have not found any research on the geography of V19. If you come across some geography info on V19, I would be interested.

Best regards, Doug
Kit#122883

[Ann Turner]

Dear Ann and Douglas!

Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

With respect,
Alexander

This gets kind of complicated. The ! means a reverse mutation. The CRS has a T at position 16298. Haplogroup V is defined by a C at that location. But as time went on, some branches of haplogroup V had a mutation at the very same location, so they have a T again. That means that 16298 won't show up on a list of differences from the CRS.

The age of a haplogroup is estimated by looking at the amount of variation that has accumulated since the clan mother started the branch. There aren't enough full mitochondrial sequences to have much confidence in the age, but FWIW, Behar gives these dates

V 9700 years
V19 2900 years
V20 5000 years

[DWFlineage]

I think you are onto something

Dear Ann and Douglas!

Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

With respect,
Alexander

Alexander,

I think you are onto something in regards to V26 & your V20 both having C16298T mutation. Let me know what the experts have to say.

Respectfully, Doug

[Alexander]

Dear Ann and Douglas!

Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

With respect,
Alexander

[DWFlineage]

Thanks for clarifying

The fact that V19 and V20 are close numerically is a red herring. All you know is that your common ancestor founded haplogroup V. The same would apply to any subclade: V3 or V11 or V15. The number portion is more-or-less in order of discovery, so the higher numbers are often less common.

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-...phylogeny.aspx

Ann,

Thanks for clearing that up. I had thought that V20 branched off of V19. Their chart shows the branches and what mutations define each branch. Okay, so these are just numbered in order of discovery, and the higher number less common. So, since Alexander & myself have (6) mutations that are different, and each mutation=1500 yrs then our common ancestor would have lived about 9000 yrs ago?

Best regards, Doug

[Ann Turner]

Alexander,

I thought since you are V20 and I am V19, that we would match closely on mutations, however we appear to be at least a 6 step match, so our haplogroups must be at least 9000 yrs apart?

Best regards, Doug

The fact that V19 and V20 are close numerically is a red herring. All you know is that your common ancestor founded haplogroup V. The same would apply to any subclade: V3 or V11 or V15. The number portion is more-or-less in order of discovery, so the higher numbers are often less common.

http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-mtdna-phylogeny.aspx

[DWFlineage]

Excellent

Dear Douglas

Thank you very much for your efforts!

I sent recently the question to the firm, so let's wait the answer, I will put in in the forum

In my opinion, I suppose our mito-haplogroups fell apart in the Neolithic or Mesolithic central Europe. Many sublcades of V are found in different Russian population, but in scarce quantities. I'll keep you informed.

With respect,
Alexander

Alexander,

Excellent, I am interested in what you find out, because we do have common ancestry, somewhere back in time.

Best regards, Doug

[Alexander]

v20

Dear Douglas

Thank you very much for your efforts!

I sent recently the question to the firm, so let's wait the answer, I will put in in the forum

In my opinion, I suppose our mito-haplogroups fell apart in the Neolithic or Mesolithic central Europe. Many sublcades of V are found in different Russian population, but in scarce quantities. I'll keep you informed.

With respect,
Alexander

[Alexander]

V20

Dear Ann!

Thanks a lot. For the sake of the project, I have already asked the firm to explain me the notation, so I'll publish its meaning.

With respect,
Alexander

[Ann Turner]

Dear Cooleagues!

My name is Alexander, I was typed as V20

Here are my mutations
HVR1 Mutations
A16129G + CC
T16187C + CC
C16189T 0
T16223C 0
G16230A 0
C16256T + AA
T16278C 0
C16294T - CC
C16311T + AA
C16519T 0

HVR2 Mutations
T72C --
G73A + AA
C146T 0
C152T + TT
C195T + TT
A247G + GG
522.1A 0
522.2C 0
315.1C 0

Is it real V20?

If some V20's (or people who are concerned or interested in V clan history and present) are in the forum, let's be in touch!!


With respect,
Alexander

Alexander, that notation is not familiar to me. It looks like it might show your results as if they were a homozygous genotype (like we see in autosomal DNA). Then the 0's might mean you have no difference from the CRS and the +'s mean you do have a difference. But the locations listed don't really match what you would see in V20. So I'm baffled.

If you are indeed V20, there are only two sequences in Genbank, one from Norway and one with no location listed.

[DWFlineage]

Insertion & deletion

Dear Douglas

and may be you know better the notation, as I do not understend what do ++CC ++AA -- -CC mean in my haplotype notation. If yes, maybe you can explain me.

And here is two kit numbers
75930 for another V20
and
267260 for V19

Did you measure your time distance from them?

With respect,
Alexander

Alexander,

I did some checking and found a dna report for a guy and his 309 had CCs and they described it in a chart as Nucleotide change, "insertion" C>CC. I think your ++AA is also an insertion, nucleotide change A>AA. Your --CC is probably a deletion Nucleotide change. I could be wrong about this, so ask an expert.

Best regards, Doug

[DWFlineage]

Further research

Dear Douglas

and may be you know better the notation, as I do not understend what do ++CC ++AA -- -CC mean in my haplotype notation. If yes, maybe you can explain me.

And here is two kit numbers
75930 for another V20
and
267260 for V19

Did you measure your time distance from them?

With respect,
Alexander

Alexander,

Kit#267260 does not have T16093C that I have, so thats make us a (3) step match including my (2) heteroplasmies.

Kit#75930 does not have T16362C, C150T, 309.1C that I have, and I do not have A16129G, C16256T, C16294T, so 6 step match.

I did some checking on ++CC, ++AA and --CC, and did not find an answer, but I will do some further checking.

Best regards, Doug