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  • #16
    v20

    Dear Douglas

    Thank you very much for your efforts!

    I sent recently the question to the firm, so let's wait the answer, I will put in in the forum

    In my opinion, I suppose our mito-haplogroups fell apart in the Neolithic or Mesolithic central Europe. Many sublcades of V are found in different Russian population, but in scarce quantities. I'll keep you informed.

    With respect,
    Alexander

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    • #17
      Excellent

      Originally posted by Alexander View Post
      Dear Douglas

      Thank you very much for your efforts!

      I sent recently the question to the firm, so let's wait the answer, I will put in in the forum

      In my opinion, I suppose our mito-haplogroups fell apart in the Neolithic or Mesolithic central Europe. Many sublcades of V are found in different Russian population, but in scarce quantities. I'll keep you informed.

      With respect,
      Alexander
      Alexander,

      Excellent, I am interested in what you find out, because we do have common ancestry, somewhere back in time.

      Best regards, Doug

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by DWFlineage View Post
        Alexander,

        I thought since you are V20 and I am V19, that we would match closely on mutations, however we appear to be at least a 6 step match, so our haplogroups must be at least 9000 yrs apart?

        Best regards, Doug
        The fact that V19 and V20 are close numerically is a red herring. All you know is that your common ancestor founded haplogroup V. The same would apply to any subclade: V3 or V11 or V15. The number portion is more-or-less in order of discovery, so the higher numbers are often less common.

        http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-...phylogeny.aspx
        Last edited by Ann Turner; 23rd November 2015, 06:28 AM.

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        • #19
          Thanks for clarifying

          Originally posted by Ann Turner View Post
          The fact that V19 and V20 are close numerically is a red herring. All you know is that your common ancestor founded haplogroup V. The same would apply to any subclade: V3 or V11 or V15. The number portion is more-or-less in order of discovery, so the higher numbers are often less common.

          http://www.mtdnacommunity.org/human-...phylogeny.aspx
          Ann,

          Thanks for clearing that up. I had thought that V20 branched off of V19. Their chart shows the branches and what mutations define each branch. Okay, so these are just numbered in order of discovery, and the higher number less common. So, since Alexander & myself have (6) mutations that are different, and each mutation=1500 yrs then our common ancestor would have lived about 9000 yrs ago?

          Best regards, Doug

          Comment


          • #20
            Dear Ann and Douglas!

            Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

            The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

            With respect,
            Alexander

            Comment


            • #21
              I think you are onto something

              Originally posted by Alexander View Post
              Dear Ann and Douglas!

              Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

              The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

              With respect,
              Alexander
              Alexander,

              I think you are onto something in regards to V26 & your V20 both having C16298T mutation. Let me know what the experts have to say.

              Respectfully, Doug

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Alexander View Post
                Dear Ann and Douglas!

                Now I'm waiting for the results from expert, and I noticed that V20 is the daughter of V-C16298T!. What does the symbol ! mean? What is time distance between the two groups, maybe 3000 years. Maybe V26 is the sister of V20?

                The V-C16298T! are concentrated near Scotland! So the scenario of it's transfer to Russian seems for me exciting. Now I'm thinking how could it happen.

                With respect,
                Alexander
                This gets kind of complicated. The ! means a reverse mutation. The CRS has a T at position 16298. Haplogroup V is defined by a C at that location. But as time went on, some branches of haplogroup V had a mutation at the very same location, so they have a T again. That means that 16298 won't show up on a list of differences from the CRS.

                The age of a haplogroup is estimated by looking at the amount of variation that has accumulated since the clan mother started the branch. There aren't enough full mitochondrial sequences to have much confidence in the age, but FWIW, Behar gives these dates

                V 9700 years
                V19 2900 years
                V20 5000 years

                Comment


                • #23
                  Thanks for that info

                  Originally posted by Ann Turner View Post
                  This gets kind of complicated. The ! means a reverse mutation. The CRS has a T at position 16298. Haplogroup V is defined by a C at that location. But as time went on, some branches of haplogroup V had a mutation at the very same location, so they have a T again. That means that 16298 won't show up on a list of differences from the CRS.

                  The age of a haplogroup is estimated by looking at the amount of variation that has accumulated since the clan mother started the branch. There aren't enough full mitochondrial sequences to have much confidence in the age, but FWIW, Behar gives these dates

                  V 9700 years
                  V19 2900 years
                  V20 5000 years
                  Ann,

                  Nice to know at least an estimate of V19 haplogroup. I have not found any research on the geography of V19. If you come across some geography info on V19, I would be interested.

                  Best regards, Doug
                  Kit#122883

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    New Data

                    Dear Ann and Douglas,

                    finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

                    R0 G73A, A11720G
                    HV T14767C
                    HV0 T72C, T16300C
                    HV0a C15905T
                    V G4581A
                    V20 G8585A, C16258T

                    is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

                    some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

                    What does it mean?

                    Thanks a lot for possible help

                    With respect,
                    Alexander

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Greetings

                      Originally posted by Alexander View Post
                      Dear Ann and Douglas,

                      finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

                      R0 G73A, A11720G
                      HV T14767C
                      HV0 T72C, T16300C
                      HV0a C15905T
                      V G4581A
                      V20 G8585A, C16258T

                      is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

                      some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

                      What does it mean?

                      Thanks a lot for possible help

                      With respect,
                      Alexander
                      Alexander,

                      Glad that the experts got back to you. I learned something about my V19 group from Ann, that it is estimated 2700 years old. I believe Ann stated your V20 group is 5000 years back. Maybe Ann can give you more information. I had also thought that each haplogroup branched off from the previous one, but Ann explained its a "red herring", so I am still learning. I know that admin separated me from V19 folks by labeling me as V19a, because of my two heteroplasmies, but that is just for admin purposes. I would be interested to know how our two haplogroups are connected?

                      Best regards, Doug

                      Kit#122883

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Alexander View Post
                        Dear Ann and Douglas,

                        finally I obtained data from experts, so I can display it. I was classified as V20 descender according to these mutations

                        R0 G73A, A11720G
                        HV T14767C
                        HV0 T72C, T16300C
                        HV0a C15905T
                        V G4581A
                        V20 G8585A, C16258T

                        is it real v20? I see that it slightly differ from classic markers, for example the last step is desscribed in both RSRS and RCRS as 8584 16256

                        some other defining mutation position numbers slightly differ from classical

                        What does it mean?

                        Thanks a lot for possible help

                        With respect,
                        Alexander
                        This is still a bit different than the conventions used by the genetic genealogy companies. One reason for the offset could be that you have an insertion compared to the CRS. There's one very common one, 315.1C (where the CRS has a rare version). If your source just keeps on counting bases, that would move the position of subsequent markers. There's also a convention to skip over an error that introduced a new base in the original CRS sequence at about 3107 (from memory). Technically, the genetic genealogy companies compare your results to the rCRS (revised CRS).

                        All these insertions and deletions make it hard to do a one-to-one comparison of your numbers. Could your source give you a FASTA file? That lists your sequence base by base, and you can run the FASTA file with James Lick's utility to see how things would be numbered.

                        http://dna.jameslick.com/mthap/

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