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Ashkenazi T1 mtDNA

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  • Ashkenazi T1 mtDNA

    So I read on Eupedia that my haplogroup, T1 is not found among Jewish populations, but all of my maternal family, and even specifically my maternal line, are Ashkenazi Jews. My records only go back as far as ~1875 for the direct maternal line, but it ends in a Hungarian/Ukrainian shtetl where my family supposedly had lived for generations.

    My autosomal results agree with that perfectly, and I have x-matches with people whose ancestors also came from the same area. So I don't think there was any weirdness like babies getting switched at the hospital.

    Does anyone have any different information about the frequency of the T1 haplogroup amongst Ashkenazim?

  • #2
    When I looked through my current Family Finder match list, I saw people who appear to be recently fully Ashkenazic Jewish with subclades like T1, T1a, T1a1, T1a1k1, T1a1j, and T1b3.

    Also a half-Ashkenazi half-Sephardi person inherited his Sephardic mother's line from Greece or Turkey and it is T1a1j.

    According to Ian Logan's mtDNA database, a particular T1a1j holder tested by Doron Behar's team and carrying the GenBank code JQ702925 has Sephardic Jewish roots in Rhodes, Greece.

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    • #3
      Also a half-Ashkenazi half-Sephardi person inherited his Sephardic mother's line from Greece or Turkey and it is T1a1j
      Interesting, thank you! My autosomal results also showed some Turkish/Greek ancestry that I have no records of anywhere in my family, but maybe there was some sephardic admixture?

      Good to know there are other ashkenazim with the T1 haplotype, though. It'll be interesting to see my particular subclade when I get coding region results back.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by welliott View Post
        My autosomal results also showed some Turkish/Greek ancestry that I have no records of anywhere in my family, but maybe there was some sephardic admixture?
        In Family Finder, at low levels of total sharing, do you match any Sephardic type people? (Such as people whose recent ancestors were all Turkish Jews, Greek Jews from Rhodes or Salonika, Moroccan Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Spaniards, Azorean Portuguese, etc.) Any such matches could be clues. However, note that the reverse is also true: some Sephardim have small amounts of distant Ashkenazic ancestry.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by khazaria View Post
          In Family Finder, at low levels of total sharing, do you match any Sephardic type people? (Such as people whose recent ancestors were all Turkish Jews, Greek Jews from Rhodes or Salonika, Moroccan Jews, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Spaniards, Azorean Portuguese, etc.) Any such matches could be clues. However, note that the reverse is also true: some Sephardim have small amounts of distant Ashkenazic ancestry.
          I'm not totally sure? I can look through my matches on family finder, I'm just given names, and I wouldn't necessarily recognize characteristically Sephardic names. I'll attempt to look through a list of common ones and cross reference, unless you know of a better way?

          I wonder if you could also help clear one other thing up for me that might help: I'm a man, so my x chromosome is exclusively from my mother, but I also get general autosomal matches with 0 x-match that seem more likely to correspond to my mother. Do you know if all autosomal match with 0 x-match necessarily comes from my father's side? Limiting to x-match would narrow the search a lot.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by welliott View Post
            Do you know if all autosomal match with 0 x-match necessarily comes from my father's side? Limiting to x-match would narrow the search a lot.
            You can easily have autosomal maternal matches with no "X" chromosome sharing. This could be as close as your mother's sibling, for example, as it would even be possible for you to share no "X" with your mother's sibling. (Not very likely if the mother's sibling is a full sister, and probably not likely even if it's your mother's brother, but still possible.)
            Last edited by loisrp; 22nd August 2017, 09:00 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by loisrp View Post
              You can easily have autosomal maternal matches with no "X" chromosome sharing. This could be as close as your mother's sibling, for example, as it would even be possible for you to share no "X" with your mother's sibling. (Not very likely if the mother's sibling is a full sister, and probably not likely even if it's your mother's brother, but still possible.)
              Oh, okay, thanks! Good to get clarification on that.

              I got my coding region results back, and I think the Sephardic origin for my mtDNA is probably sunk. My subclade is t1a1 and the vast majority of my exact full maternal sequence matches are in Scandanavia or the British Isles. I realize that only puts us as related within the last 500 years, so maybe there was a convert somewhere down the line? Though if my family were in Galicia the whole time, I'm curious as to when there would have been likely to have been a Scandanavian or British/Irish woman to have married into a Jewish population between circa 1500 and 1880.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by welliott View Post
                I got my coding region results back, and I think the Sephardic origin for my mtDNA is probably sunk. My subclade is t1a1 and the vast majority of my exact full maternal sequence matches are in Scandanavia or the British Isles. I realize that only puts us as related within the last 500 years, so maybe there was a convert somewhere down the line? Though if my family were in Galicia the whole time, I'm curious as to when there would have been likely to have been a Scandanavian or British/Irish woman to have married into a Jewish population between circa 1500 and 1880.
                Hi again. In your Full Coding Region screen, could you please tell us the genetic distance numbers between you and the members of Christian families from northern Europe? By exact matches did you mean the genetic distance is truly 0? Or are some of them more like genetic distance of 3?

                You might still have some Sephardic DNA in some other lineage(s), though.

                I doubt all of your ancestors were living in Galicia in the 1600s. Some possibly lived in nearby regions like Hungary or central Poland at that time.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                  Hi again. In your Full Coding Region screen, could you please tell us the genetic distance numbers between you and the members of Christian families from northern Europe? By exact matches did you mean the genetic distance is truly 0? Or are some of them more like genetic distance of 3?

                  I doubt all of your ancestors were living in Galicia in the 1600s. Some possibly lived in nearby regions like Hungary or central Poland at that time.
                  Well, prior to 1919 the area my direct maternal line is from was Hungary, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they had moved around within the country. Some cousins very proudly considered themselves Hungarian until the 30's when that shifted for obvious reasons.

                  I do have some 3 distance matches in those regions, but I was referring to 0 distance matches in my previous post. I've attached a screenshot of the map. In my matches list there are some other ashkenazi people, but the highest concentration of 0-step matches for my full sequence ftDNA seem to be people of Scandanavian Christian ancestry.
                  Attached Files

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                  • #10
                    T1a1 among Jews

                    I believe I have corresponded with welliot privately. I wish to make a statement here so that others can correct any error. I understand that the statistics provided by FTDNA that an exact Full Sequence mtDNA match indicates a common ancestress within the last 550 years applies only to the majority of mtDNA branches which have developed mutations over the centuries, on the average of one every 500 years. A good example is that of Richard III's sister from whom paper trail present descendants have been traced. Richard's full sequence has been published. His mtDNA haplogroup is J1c2c3 and one of the descendants can be seen to carry an additional mutation in the coding region, which must have appeared in the last 500 years.

                    According to Behar T1a1 appeared 6997.3 years ago give or take 2088.1 years. The root form of T1a1, which I carry and I am Jewish, has however had no mutations since then, that is it has not changed in any way since that date. This would provide completely different statistics which would put the average common ancestress at 2,000 or 3,000 years ago. This would leave ample windows of opportunity for a European to convert to Judaism in the medieval period.

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                    • #11
                      The average mtDNA mutation rate is closer to one in 3000 years, but there is extremely large variability in the number of mutations that accumulate in individual lineages. Some lineages can accumulate several mutations during 3000 years while other lineages have had no mutations in their maternal line in more than 10,000 years. T1a1 might have originated during the Neolithic revolution in the the Near East and expanded with farmers into Europe several thousand years ago, but it is also likely that some T1a1 remained in the Middle East (there are several T1a1 samples from Iran). An early Jewish origin in the Middle East is a possibility for some people in T1a1, but if your T1a1 lineage lacks additional mutations, you cannot conclude anything specific about the origin or migrations of your maternal line.

                      For mtDNA mutations rates, the 2009 Soares et al. paper is a good reference. "Correcting for Purifying Selection: An Improved Human Mitochondrial Molecular Clock"

                      Also - it would be helpful it FTDNA eliminated its outdated table of most recent common ancestor estimates for mtDNA and replaced it with a more nuanced description of mtDNA mutation rates. The table is extremely misleading for people who are trying to interpret their test results.
                      Last edited by GST; 1st October 2017, 11:32 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SHV View Post
                        This would leave ample windows of opportunity for a European to convert to Judaism in the medieval period.
                        It is also possible that your T1a1 lineage originated in the Middle East and was part of the early Jewish Diaspora. The lack of additional recent mtDNA mutations makes it impossible to determine the specific recent origin of your lineage, but the fact that are several T1a1 subclades from Iran might indicate an early Jewish origin for your lineage is a good possibility.

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                        • #13
                          TitleShlain

                          My Ashkenazi family tree is from Berestechko village Volyn province, Poland. I was able to trace my family tree without DNA testing from 1800 based on archive records of last name at the time when Jews were required to have last names. My parents are from Pahutinetz shtetel, near Kupel and near Volochisk. I am wondering if anyone have some ideas how to trace Family tree before 1800 knowing only the first name of the person and village name which is Berestechko, Volyn province, Poland (now Ukraine). Greatly appreciate your advice.

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