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  • rRCS and RSRS T1a1b

    I did an mtFS and came out T1a1b. I was wondering if the haplogroup designation changed between rRCS and RSRS standards usage. How would I find out what the two standards declared as my mtDNA haplogroup.

  • #2
    Originally posted by singingfalls View Post
    I did an mtFS and came out T1a1b. I was wondering if the haplogroup designation changed between rRCS and RSRS standards usage. How would I find out what the two standards declared as my mtDNA haplogroup.
    The mtDNA haplogroup designation is the same regardless whether rCRS or RSRS is used.

    Think of a street address. It does not depend whether you are coming to it from South or North, although the directions would be different.

    Mr W

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    • #3
      The reason I asked was based on this article here: http://dna-explained.com/2012/07/15/...-and-the-rsrs/ which indicated changes in her own haplogroup designation. I thought perhaps I2a1b2 would have a similar change.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by singingfalls View Post
        The reason I asked was based on this article here: http://dna-explained.com/2012/07/15/...-and-the-rsrs/ which indicated changes in her own haplogroup designation. I thought perhaps I2a1b2 would have a similar change.
        Roberta Estes (the author) could have clarified that blog entry, if only because people use her blog as a reference

        rCRS (initially CRS, but nobody is using CRS after rCRS was put forward) was based on mtDNA of a European female.

        So to find a haplogroup for someone using rCRS, it is required start from her and to go back in the tree and then down. It could be confusing at times, I know ;-) I had tried that... And for non-European haplogroups it is truly challenging. (I did not say how far back one has to go in the tree, as that is the main part of the challenge...)

        With RSRS one just goes down the same tree as was used with rCRS, starting from Mitochondrial Eve.

        When RSRS was proposed a new tree had been put forward, but not just because rCSR was meant to be replaced. Since RSRS starts with Mitochondrial Eve, it was very important to have the root of the tree (Mitochondrial Eve) correctly established. Additionally, newly available research was taken into account. So the tree is different = some haplogroups are different.

        But that happens all the time with mtDNA and Y-DNA research. When new results become available, the tree gets redrawn. Please take a look at the page http://www.phylotree.org/what_is_new.htm showing history of changes for the mtDNA tree. Build 14 was the one Roberta Estes wrote about, then there was Build 15, and now we have Build 16.

        Build 13 looked very different, since mutations were described using rCRS, the later ones use RSRS. However, changes to haplogroup come from our improved understanding of mtDNA tree and data from newly processed samples, and not from deciding whether to use rCRS or RSRS. (There is a version of Build 16 that is done using rCRS. Its page http://www.phylotree.org/rCRS-oriented_version.htm does not talk about different haplogroups, but only about different ways of describing the same tree.)


        I hope I did not make things more convoluted ;-)

        Mr W

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        • #5
          Originally posted by singingfalls View Post
          The reason I asked was based on this article here: http://dna-explained.com/2012/07/15/...-and-the-rsrs/ which indicated changes in her own haplogroup designation. I thought perhaps I2a1b2 would have a similar change.
          Here you asking about your Y-DNA haplogroup, not mtDNA like before. Those two trees are entirely unrelated, and the research into them occurs independently.

          With Y-DNA it is easier. Not only the tree was always meant to start with Y-chromosomal Adam, but the revolutionary change in nomenclature happened so long ago (in 2002), that very few remember it. (13 years is a very, very long time in genetics.)

          On the other hand, Y-DNA haplogroups get redrawn quite often. Although in some part of the tree more often than in the others.

          Please take a look at the Conversion table for Y chromosome haplogroups at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convers...me_haplogroups. Your haplogroup is not listed, but the adjacent one, I2a1b1, is featured there.

          Mr W

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dna View Post
            Here you asking about your Y-DNA haplogroup, not mtDNA like before. Those two trees are entirely unrelated, and the research into them occurs independently.

            With Y-DNA it is easier. Not only the tree was always meant to start with Y-chromosomal Adam, but the revolutionary change in nomenclature happened so long ago (in 2002), that very few remember it. (13 years is a very, very long time in genetics.)

            On the other hand, Y-DNA haplogroups get redrawn quite often. Although in some part of the tree more often than in the others.

            Please take a look at the Conversion table for Y chromosome haplogroups at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convers...me_haplogroups. Your haplogroup is not listed, but the adjacent one, I2a1b1, is featured there.

            Mr W
            My error. T1a1b is the mtDNA haplogroup I meant to refer to. blah! I hate mistakes. My apologies. My Y haplogroup is I2a1b2a1a2

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            • #7
              Originally posted by dna View Post

              I hope I did not make things more convoluted ;-)

              Mr W
              Nope, you didn't. I found this short http://haplogrep.uibk.ac.at/blog/rcrs-vs-rsrs-vs-hg19/ explanation very helpful. I see that they attach an N on positions that need a place holder just to keep things relatively sane. Thanks for the feedback.

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