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  • Violen453
    started a topic Jewish ancestry

    Jewish ancestry

    If somebody takes the mtdna full sequence test, and discovers that they match with some jewish people, like ashkenazim and sephardim, does that mean that they have a jewish maternal ancestor?

  • josh w.
    replied
    Does Ivanka Trump Have Jewish Dna

    I know that this is off the main topic, but it looks like Ivanka has Jewish dna. Her great grandfather was Emmanuel Zelnick. He was from Moravia which had a significant Jewish presence. The name seems more Jewish than Czech and there are Jews with similar names. Ivana Trump's maiden name was Zelnickova. She is not Jewish, but this would not be unusual in that there is continuous pressure to assimilate in that region due to anti-Semitism.

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  • kayenjay
    replied
    Thanks KATM! I believe it is December. The entries above are for infants' baptisms, and they are from December 1812.

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  • KATM
    replied
    I was going to venture that the month could be December, or perhaps September, based on the Latin Genealogical Word List at Familysearch.org, under the "Dates and Times" section:

    (Month).............(Ways it is written in Latin records)
    September........September, 7ber, VIIber
    October.............October, 8ber, VIIIber
    November.........November, 9ber, IXber
    December.........December, 10ber, Xber

    . . . but I wasn't sure what I was seeing - if it was "7ber" or something else. Since kayenjay can see it better, it's probably "Xbr." The pen stroke (above and through) the "br" could be for the entry above, although the other ink there is lighter.
    Last edited by KATM; 18th November 2017, 02:00 PM.

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  • kayenjay
    replied
    Mr. W, thank you for your thoughtful reply!

    Google has been my friend in all this, and if I believe what I read, neophita means convert to Christianity. And the surname Grudzienski(ska) is a surname taken by Jews who converted in the month of December, which is the case here.

    It looks like the date that you see in the record 27 Dec 1812 is the date that she was baptized. And she was about 30 years old. The surrounding records are baptisms of infants from 1812. She married in Feb. 1813, so I am thinking she got baptized so she could get married.

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  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by kayenjay View Post
    Hi, I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation here. I, too, did the full sequence mtDNA test. My haplogroup is H3p and I have 68 coding region matches. 38 of them are at genetic distance of 0 and most appear to be Jewish. My family (all 4 grandparents) came from Poland. I was raised Catholic.

    I have been searching for Jewish ancestry based on family lore and comments. On GEDmatch, my brother and I show minimal Jewish ancestry on Jtest (me .75%, my brother 3.45%). I haven't had a chance yet to spend time triangulating matches.

    But I have spent considerable time chasing the paper trail and I recently found a document that I think shows the baptism and maybe conversion of my maternal 3x great-grandmother in 1812. I also have the paper trail that shows the lineage from her to my grandmother. She is often referred to as "neophita" in these records.

    I have attached a copy of the baptismal record, written in Latin. I am having a hard time deciphering it. I think it says Infidelum Judaem (unbelieving Jew?) My 3x great-grandmother, Victoria Agnes Grudzienska, was about 30 years old when she was baptized, and got married to my Catholic 3x great-grandfather a couple of months later. If anyone out there can read Latin handwriting, I'd appreciate your help!

    Sorry I have been so long-winded here, but I would say to you, don't give up. Dig into the paper trail route, and see where you land! I think, despite having minimal AJ DNA, I do think I have a Jewish ancestor.

    Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to comment on my theory!
    That is precisely why I moved to genetic genealogy !
    I had left deciphering illegible handwriting to others

    All I am able to recognize are just names, plenty of them...

    Infidelum Judaem = Jewish non-believer, as in a Jewish person not believing in Christ, as contrasted to Jewish believers in Christ (Saint Peter, Saint Paul, etc.). It sounds weird in modern English, but was completely natural some time ago.

    Neophita is just neophyte, a statement of fact. Yes, she was a newcomer (starter) in the Catholic Church. Today the word catechumen would be used (the plural is catechumens...) before the baptism, but after the baptism not too many people make any distinction (nowadays so many change faith, sometimes often, that it is not as important as it used to be).

    Now, what the origins are of that particular H3p lineage, I do not know. It might be impossible to track, as you have to remember that there was a very small (one thousand?) group of Jews 1000 years ago that with a small influx from local populations (mostly German and Polish) had grown into millions of Ahkenazim.

    Your Wiktoria Agnieszka Grudzieńska (I can clearly see "ń"), when was her baptism? I can only see Anno Domini 1812, ~~ 27 ...er
    If you can look through adjacent records, or it is indexed, it could be easy to answer.


    Mr. W

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by JMAisHere View Post
    You misses my point, how will Ivankas children in any way prove a Jewish ancestory to Violen453 (in this hypothetical example). If the match was via Donald not via Jared (which the match will not tell you), how will that prove a Jewish ancestor. We have no idea where the branching happens.
    OK but there is a possibility that Donald had Jewish ancestry. There may be other explanations, but Donald's brother was in a Jewish fraternity.
    Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017, 09:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • kayenjay
    replied
    Jewish ancestry

    Originally posted by Violen453 View Post
    If somebody takes the mtdna full sequence test, and discovers that they match with some jewish people, like ashkenazim and sephardim, does that mean that they have a jewish maternal ancestor?
    Hi, I hope you don't mind if I join the conversation here. I, too, did the full sequence mtDNA test. My haplogroup is H3p and I have 68 coding region matches. 38 of them are at genetic distance of 0 and most appear to be Jewish. My family (all 4 grandparents) came from Poland. I was raised Catholic.

    I have been searching for Jewish ancestry based on family lore and comments. On GEDmatch, my brother and I show minimal Jewish ancestry on Jtest (me .75%, my brother 3.45%). I haven't had a chance yet to spend time triangulating matches.

    But I have spent considerable time chasing the paper trail and I recently found a document that I think shows the baptism and maybe conversion of my maternal 3x great-grandmother in 1812. I also have the paper trail that shows the lineage from her to my grandmother. She is often referred to as "neophita" in these records.

    I have attached a copy of the baptismal record, written in Latin. I am having a hard time deciphering it. I think it says Infidelum Judaem (unbelieving Jew?) My 3x great-grandmother, Victoria Agnes Grudzienska, was about 30 years old when she was baptized, and got married to my Catholic 3x great-grandfather a couple of months later. If anyone out there can read Latin handwriting, I'd appreciate your help!

    Sorry I have been so long-winded here, but I would say to you, don't give up. Dig into the paper trail route, and see where you land! I think, despite having minimal AJ DNA, I do think I have a Jewish ancestor.

    Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to comment on my theory!
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • JMAisHere
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    Member

    Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.
    You misses my point, how will Ivankas children in any way prove a Jewish ancestory to Violen453 (in this hypothetical example). If the match was via Donald not via Jared (which the match will not tell you), how will that prove a Jewish ancestor. We have no idea where the branching happens.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    Member

    Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.
    It is even possible that Donald Trump had Jewish ancestors in Germany. In addition, Ivanka's brother married a Jewish woman and Donald's brother joined a Jewish fraternity.z

    Ivana Trump's father had a surname often found among Ashkenazis ( Zelnick--Czech version)
    Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017, 02:14 PM.

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by JMAisHere View Post
    If you match with Ivanka Trump (I doubt she has done a FTDNA), you have a match with jewish people. But neither Donald or Ivanka ar jewish. There you see how difficult it can be to assume to much from your matches and there ancestor.
    Member

    Choose a better example. Ivanka's children have Jewish dna. Members of Jared's family have been dna tested. I have a genealogical connection to Jared Kushner---we are related by marriage. It is even possible that Ivanka has Jewish ancestors in central Europe.
    Last edited by josh w.; 17th November 2017, 12:56 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JMAisHere
    replied
    Originally posted by Violen453 View Post
    So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted?
    If you match with Ivanka Trump (I doubt she has done a FTDNA), you have a match with jewish people. But neither Donald or Ivanka ar jewish. There you see how difficult it can be to assume to much from your matches and there ancestor.

    Leave a comment:


  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by Violen453 View Post
    So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted? I am so sorry i am completely new to this
    If a sibling (or siblings) of an ancestor of a non-Jewish person converted to Judaism, then this non-Jewish person would be matching Jews while having no Jewish ancestry.

    Analysis of such cases is very hard, since the converts were often disowned by their families. Not only they were getting no inheritance, but also nobody was supposed to mention their name anymore etc. Upon a conversion, both the first name and the family name were usually changed, so such a person (the convert) might appear in paper genealogy as a child who died in their infancy, but a death record is missing.


    Mr. W

    P.S.
    The above process, but in a mirror, would also describe issues Jews are facing when matching non-Jewish people, after someone who was not their ancestor converted to Christianity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Violen453
    replied
    So if a non jew who matches with with a jewish person or multiple jewisb people, then it could be that they have an ancestor who converted? I am so sorry i am completely new to this

    Leave a comment:


  • dna
    replied
    Originally posted by brownbagg View Post
    when did a religion thought have effect with human dna.
    People forget that as the result of conversions going both ways:
    • a Jewish person can share DNA with a non-Jewish person, while having no non-Jewish ancestors
    • a non-Jewish person can share DNA with a Jewish person, while having no Jewish ancestors


    Mr. W

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