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Exact same HVR1+HVR2 (all 13 codes) in haplogroup K

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  • Exact same HVR1+HVR2 (all 13 codes) in haplogroup K

    Hello,

    I have with three persons the exact match with mtDNA HVR1+HVR2 (all 13 codes) in haplogroup K. They all live in spain and one of them has a jewish family.

    Is that likely that I am also a jew, because of the exact same motherline?

    In general the haplogroup K stands for jewish people?

    Kind regards

    Bepunkt

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bepunkt View Post
    Hello,

    I have with three persons the exact match with mtDNA HVR1+HVR2 (all 13 codes) in haplogroup K. They all live in spain and one of them has a jewish family.

    Is that likely that I am also a jew, because of the exact same motherline?

    In general the haplogroup K stands for jewish people?

    Kind regards

    Bepunkt
    Not necessarily. Your common ancestor is probably a male and more likely non-Jewish than Jewish.

    Comment


    • #3
      Bepunkt, have you done the Full Mitochondrial Sequence test (mtFullSequence) or the mtPlus test? If you've done the mtFullSequence, what is your full haplogroup? Only certain subclades are known to be Jewish. As explained on Eupedia's page for Haplogroup K,

      Ashkenazi Jews are the ethnic groups with the highest percentage of K lineages today : 32% in average, and up to 50% among Ashkenazi Jews from Germany. There are only three typically Jewish subclades of K: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. There are other subclades, like K1a7, K1a8 and K2c, which are also found among people of Jewish descent, but they are very rare.
      If you have not done the mtFullSequence, you may want to do so, to determine a possible answer to your question.

      Remember that the countries specified for your mtDNA matches are self-reported; i.e., the person who matches you (or the person who manages that account) has listed the country of their Most Distant Known Ancestor in their direct maternal line (not FTDNA) as they know it. They only know what their research has shown, which may or may not be accurate.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by georgian1950 View Post
        Not necessarily. Your common ancestor is probably a male and more likely non-Jewish than Jewish.
        what do you mean? its about the mtDNA not Y. And the match is with a female person.

        Comment


        • #5
          I made the mtPlus test.

          But I asked is that likley to be a jew or have jewish ancestors, if MVR1 and MVR2 is exactly the same with a 100 Percent jewish woman? (assumption: the woman is 100 percent jewish)



          Originally posted by KATM View Post
          Bepunkt, have you done the Full Mitochondrial Sequence test (mtFullSequence) or the mtPlus test? If you've done the mtFullSequence, what is your full haplogroup? Only certain subclades are known to be Jewish. As explained on Eupedia's page for Haplogroup K,



          If you have not done the mtFullSequence, you may want to do so, to determine a possible answer to your question.

          Remember that the countries specified for your mtDNA matches are self-reported; i.e., the person who matches you (or the person who manages that account) has listed the country of their Most Distant Known Ancestor in their direct maternal line (not FTDNA) as they know it. They only know what their research has shown, which may or may not be accurate.

          Comment


          • #6
            It may be possible, but I think it would depend on how far back you and your match can go on your respective trees, and if you can find the connection between you and the match. Has the match with Jewish ancestry done the mtFullSequence test? You can see this has by looking in the column next to the match's name, where it would show "FMS" for Full Mitochondrial Sequence. While you're at it, check to see if "FF" (for Family Finder) is shown for this match, and see if he or she is in your Family Finder matches (if you've taken the Family Finder test, of course).

            My suggestion is to get the mtFullSequence test in any case, if you can afford it. You could wait until when the Holiday Sale starts sometime in November; on top of the sale prices, FTDNA offers coupons each week of the sale, which can be used along with the sale pricing. That may make it more affordable to you.

            Once you have your Full Sequence haplogroup, you can see if it is one of the K subclades that are considered Jewish. If your Jewish match has the same subclade, that will make it more likely that you also had matrilineal Jewish ancestry.

            You should check out the "mtDNA Matches Page" in the FTDNA Learning Center. Once on that page, scroll down to the "mtDNA Matches Page - Questions" area, and see the question "On the mtDNA - Matches page, are only exact matches shown?" This is what it says:
            There are currently two sets of rules for mtDNA matching.
            • For those who have tested HVR1 (mtDNA) or HVR1 and HVR2 (mtDNAPlus), only exact matches are shown. SmartMatching is also used to prevent a match between different haplogroups.
            • For those who have tested the mtDNA Full Sequence (mtFullSequence), three differences are allowed. These differences include cases of heteroplasmy. Two high frequency insertion/deletion locations are completely excluded from difference counts. These are mutations at positions 309 and 315.
            Next, see the chart on the "Maternal Lineage Tests" page. It shows that:
            • Exact matches for the mtDNAPlus test have a 50% confidence level to be between about 700 years to about 1,300 years in the past (28 to 52 generations). There is no 95% confidence level for the mtDNAPlus test.
            • With the mtDNAFullSequence test, there is a 50% confidence level that the match will be within 125 years (5 generations), and a 95% confidence level for the match to be within 550 years (22 generations).

            Thus, the mtFullSequence test has a better chance to show a relationship within a genealogical timespan. Some or all of your matches shown at the mtDNAPlus level may not show as exact matches if they did the mtFullSequence test.
            Last edited by KATM; 21st September 2017, 04:56 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bepunkt View Post
              what do you mean? its about the mtDNA not Y. And the match is with a female person.
              Yes, there would be a common female ancestor, too, from which the mtDNA haplotype would come. Not enough coffee this morning before posting, but the point is that the male ancestor is not necessarily Jewish and depending how the female descendants marry, they may fall into either a Jewish line or non-Jewish one.

              Comment


              • #8
                I should add to my most recent post. The matches you have at the mtDNAPlus level may not even be in the same subclade as you at the mtDNAFullSequence level.

                In other words, you are in mtDNA haplogroup K; if you tested to the mtDNAFullSequence level, you may find your subclade to be something like K1a1b1b (shown as "found in Scandinavia and Britain" on the Eupedia page for haplogroup K). Your match may also be in the K haplogroup, but if the person tested with mtDNAFull Sequence, they might be a different subclade, such as K1a1b1a (shown as a "major Ashkenazi Jewish subclade"). Only the last letter for the two subclades is different, but in such a case, you would not have a common matrilineal ancestor.

                So the fact that you have an exact match with Jewish ancestry at the mtDNAPlus level does not prove that you have Jewish ancestry.

                Comment


                • #9
                  ok, I will do one.

                  Thank you


                  Originally posted by KATM View Post
                  I should add to my most recent post. The matches you have at the mtDNAPlus level may not even be in the same subclade as you at the mtDNAFullSequence level.

                  In other words, you are in mtDNA haplogroup K; if you tested to the mtDNAFullSequence level, you may find your subclade to be something like K1a1b1b (shown as "found in Scandinavia and Britain" on the Eupedia page for haplogroup K). Your match may also be in the K haplogroup, but if the person tested with mtDNAFull Sequence, they might be a different subclade, such as K1a1b1a (shown as a "major Ashkenazi Jewish subclade"). Only the last letter for the two subclades is different, but in such a case, you would not have a common matrilineal ancestor.

                  So the fact that you have an exact match with Jewish ancestry at the mtDNAPlus level does not prove that you have Jewish ancestry.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    even a 100% match with full mtDNA might be as far back as 3000 years ago, for an HVR1+HVR2 only match it could easily be 10,000 or more years back

                    Do any of you show anything more than just plain K from the HVR1+HVR2 test alone?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      3 of the K subclades are predominantly Ashkenazi Jewish. If you have mtDNA matches who tend to be of that background, it may be evidence that you are likely to fall into one of those subclades, which more testing would confirm.

                      If you do fall into one of those subclades, it's pretty likely, but not certain, that you can trace back to a maternal ancestor who was Jewish.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I am K1a13

                        What does it mean? Who can help me?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bepunkt, according to the Eupedia page for mtDNA haplogroup K, subclade K1a13 is not shown with a location, but a subclade of it, K1a13a, shows "found in Croatia and Spain." K1a13 does not seem to be among the subclades of K that are connected to Jewish ancestry. Do you have any matches at the Full Sequence level? At what genetic distance are they (0, 1, 2, 3)? Do those matches show any location for their earliest known maternal line ancestor? For many, if not most, of your mtDNA matches, the common ancestor will likely be very far back, perhaps too far back to have records.

                          The haplogroup.org website has a page for K1a13, but also does not show an origin. It is the same for my haplogroup, K1a3 - they are still determining an origin.

                          You should consider joining the mtDNA project for haplogroup K. Perhaps someone in the Activity Feed (other members of the project) could address your question.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            thank you for your answer. yes the subclade of K1a13 includes discoveries in croatia and spain. but the countrys are very far away (aboud 2000km). it is completley uncertain if K1a13 belongs to eastern (croatia) or western (spain) europe. rather it shows, that K1a13 migrated trough east europe and west europe. this is usual for the jewish people. other subclades have people like "Scandinavia and Britain" or "Germany, France and the Low Countries"

                            But croatia and spain??? haha??? 1000 years ago the distance was like a other universe..

                            what do you think?

                            I have full sequence Matches with distance 2 (one person) and 3 (12 persons). There are no names from eastern europe. more than the half of the 13 persons are names from spain....

                            "Do those matches show any location for their earliest known maternal line ancestor?"

                            1830 ... a spanish name



                            Originally posted by KATM View Post
                            Bepunkt, according to the Eupedia page for mtDNA haplogroup K, subclade K1a13 is not shown with a location, but a subclade of it, K1a13a, shows "found in Croatia and Spain." K1a13 does not seem to be among the subclades of K that are connected to Jewish ancestry. Do you have any matches at the Full Sequence level? At what genetic distance are they (0, 1, 2, 3)? Do those matches show any location for their earliest known maternal line ancestor? For many, if not most, of your mtDNA matches, the common ancestor will likely be very far back, perhaps too far back to have records.

                            The haplogroup.org website has a page for K1a13, but also does not show an origin. It is the same for my haplogroup, K1a3 - they are still determining an origin.

                            You should consider joining the mtDNA project for haplogroup K. Perhaps someone in the Activity Feed (other members of the project) could address your question.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Do the mtDNA Full Sequence matches who show their most distant known ancestor (MDKA) as being from Spain show up on your Matches Map page? The Matches Maps page displays the geographic locations for your and your matches’ earliest known ancestors, and you can go to it by clicking on the link "Matches Map" in the mtDNA section on your "Dashboard" page when you log in. Be sure to use the drop menu at the upper left, to select "mtDNA Full Sequence." Your matches may have specified a maternal MDKA that will show on the Matches Map, but have not put that information in their profile. It's worth checking.

                              Your mtDNA matches' connection to you may be 1000's of years back, or could be within the last 550 years. How far does your genealogy research go back (how many generations)? Is there anyone from Spain you have found in your maternal line ancestors? Whether you have Spanish ancestry or not, you need to check your mtDNA Full Sequence matches' profiles to see if they have listed any surnames and locations, and if they have, see if any of those occur in your maternal ancestry. See if they have a tree posted at FTDNA and check it. Contact your matches (whether or not they have surnames, locations or a tree) to see if you can figure out a connection to them.

                              Does the Jewish match you had at the mtDNA Plus level (HVR1 and HVR2) still show as a match on your Full Sequence list of matches)? Since your K1a13 haplogroup is not one of the known Jewish haplogroups, it's unlikely your matrilineal ancestor was Jewish. Did you do the mtDNA tests to find or confirm Jewish ancestry?

                              You could take the Family Finder test, and see if any of your matches are Jewish; that test only goes back about 250 to 500 years, within genealogical research time.

                              Comment

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