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Full sequence mtDNA and MRCA

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  • Full sequence mtDNA and MRCA

    I had my great grandfathers cousin do a full sequence mtDNA test. I should have gotten my results back by now but they have been pushed back of course. The man tested is a direct maternal line descendant of my 3rd great grandmother Maria Armijo from New Mexico. She is who I get my Native from.

    My autosomal Native percentage doubled on my moms test, then that doubled on my grandmothers brothers test. Then I also had my great grandfathers cousin do an autosomal test as well as the mtDNA and his Native percentage double what my grandmothers brother was. He is at 16% Native and interestingly 2% West African. I know the African comes from my line because my grandmothers brother showed trace amount of West African.

    So, now that I have the back story explained. I am curious about how the mtDNA full squence works as far as most common recent ancestor. Do certain markers have specific time frames, or is it more based on genealogical information my matches have?

  • #2
    Full-sequence mtDNA follows the strict matrilineal line: mother's mother's mother's mother, all the way back to "Eve."

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    • #3
      Yes I am aware of that. What I am asking is if certain markers have dates of origin. Like with yDNA certain snp's have a general age and origin. For instance, my original yDNA haplogroup was R-L21. Then I tested downline of that and got a more recent haplogroup R-S1051 which has a certain date and place of origin.

      So is mtDNA like yDNA in that regard? Instead of getting a generic "C" maternal haplogroup would the full sequence test get a more recent specific haplogroup than that?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
        Yes I am aware of that. What I am asking is if certain markers have dates of origin. Like with yDNA certain snp's have a general age and origin. For instance, my original yDNA haplogroup was R-L21. Then I tested downline of that and got a more recent haplogroup R-S1051 which has a certain date and place of origin.

        So is mtDNA like yDNA in that regard? Instead of getting a generic "C" maternal haplogroup would the full sequence test get a more recent specific haplogroup than that?
        Yes, the full sequence mtDNA test will take the person tested to the most recent known subclade. And, if there is a new mutation found in the person's results, it's possible that it will form a new subclade at some point in the future if someone not related to him is found to have the same unique new mutation in that haplogroup.

        However, keep in mind that most people in the U.S. with any Native American ancestry have small amounts, due to admixture with Europeans in the last few hundred years. Perhaps if someone has a Native American ancestor from 100 or 150 years ago who lived on a reservation, that person would have a significant amount of Native American ancestry due to the ancestor on the reservation probably not having much European admixture.

        And the mtDNA test will only give you information about the strict maternal line - mother, maternal grandmother, maternal grandmother's mother, etc. If your relative doesn't have Native American ancestry in that very thin ancestral line, the mtDNA test won't pick it up.

        The haplogroups that are considered to represent Native American ancestry are A, B, C, D and some X.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
          I am curious about how the mtDNA full squence works as far as most common recent ancestor. Do certain markers have specific time frames, or is it more based on genealogical information my matches have?
          Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
          Yes I am aware of that. What I am asking is if certain markers have dates of origin. Like with yDNA certain snp's have a general age and origin.

          So is mtDNA like yDNA in that regard? Instead of getting a generic "C" maternal haplogroup would the full sequence test get a more recent specific haplogroup than that?
          There aren't any web sites that calculate the age of each mtDNA subclade found from Full Sequence testing like YFull does for Y-DNA.

          If Ann Turner reads this she might be able to give us an idea how they calculate time estimates of the branching of mtDNA subclades.

          There was a very recent article that calculated updates time estimates of the separation of Native American mtDNA haplogroups from Siberians, the dating of Native American founder lineages, and the population expansion of Native Americans. http://advances.sciencemag.org/conte.../e1501385.full

          It's unfortunate that we can't just pop our Native American mtDNA subclade into a website and find out when it first appeared in an ancestor.

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          • #6
            Here is a side by side of my grandmother and great great great grandmother.
            Attached Files

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            • #7
              My grandmother would have been about 1/12th Native according to the tests I have done with family members. My great great great grandmother would have been atleast half. But considering she was from a Hispanic family in New Mexico, that doesnt necessarily mean that one of her parents were full blood Native because most people were mixed in that area so the mixed percentages just kept maintaining through each generation. But on paper I got to her maternal great grandmother. I hit a dead end there. But the reason I am pretty sure that maternal line will be Native is because the majority of hispanics have a Native mtDNA.

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              • #8
                And just to clarify. My Native "source" Maria Armijo, is my mothers, mothers, fathers, fathers, mother. So I know my mtDNA would not show that line. Interestingly enough my actual mtDNA is C5c1a, which is a European branch of the C group.

                But the relative I had tested, his mothers mother was Maria Armijo. I was shocked to find that he was still alive and agreed to do the test. So now we will just have to wait and see if Maria's maternal line is infact Native.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Armando View Post
                  There aren't any web sites that calculate the age of each mtDNA subclade found from Full Sequence testing like YFull does for Y-DNA.
                  There was paper published a few years ago that had estimates for all mtdna haplogroups at that time:

                  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...2/bin/mmc1.pdf

                  Most of the data is not very useful because the range is SO HUGE:

                  For my mtnda it is not useful other than to tell me my mtdna "matches" can be thousands of years back.
                  H5a1f - 2977.7 years ago with a standard deviation of 2634.6 years.

                  None are in genealogical time. FTDNA never advertises this for obvious reasons. Seriously a single mtdna mutation could be between a mother and child or many thousands of years. MtDNA MCRA ranges are really that big.
                  Last edited by thetick; 7th April 2016, 12:52 AM.

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                  • #10
                    Hi,

                    At this web address you will find the study made by Behar et al in 2012, which resulted in the re-assessment of the mitochondrial tree...
                    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...02929712001462

                    Download the accompanying PDF file Document S1 (the file downloads as mmc1.pdf), in here you will find the estimated origin dates for all the known groups at that time.

                    Mine is H23 and can be found on page 103, estimated at 2064 years ago.
                    page 103

                    edit: just moticed this is the same file as given by thetick in the previous post
                    H23 2064.2 2842.0
                    Last edited by Jomid59; 7th April 2016, 04:13 AM. Reason: added date of study and note of previous post.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
                      Then I also had my great grandfathers cousin do an autosomal test as well as the mtDNA and his Native percentage double what my grandmothers brother was. He is at 16% Native and interestingly 2% West African. I know the African comes from my line because my grandmothers brother showed trace amount of West African.
                      Is the 16% Native and 2% West African from myOrigins or from Gedmatch? If from myOrigins it should be higher at Gedmatch. Also add up the East Asian and Siberian for the total actual Native American.

                      Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
                      But the relative I had tested, his mothers mother was Maria Armijo. I was shocked to find that he was still alive and agreed to do the test. So now we will just have to wait and see if Maria's maternal line is infact Native.
                      You are very lucky.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by thetick View Post
                        None are in genealogical time. FTDNA never advertises this for obvious reasons. Seriously a single mtdna mutation could be between a mother and child or many thousands of years. MtDNA MCRA ranges are really that big.
                        I have seen a group of 6 people that descend from the same female about 10 generations back with single mutation in a couple of the descendants. The matching also helped us look closer at the documentation for two of the matches which took us to the same female ancestor.

                        In another case I was able to find documentation to the same ancestor between two matches.

                        It isn't common that this happens but it can. Not matching when documentation says otherwise also helps disprove a common ancestor through the direct maternal line.

                        Lastly, once enough mtDNA subclades have been identified based on Full Sequence testing there should be more regional distinctions.

                        So although mtDNA mutations aren't necessarily in a genealogical time frame the Full Sequence testing can be helpful at times and people don't know if it is helpful until they get the test and join haplogroup and regional projects and share their genealogical tree.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Armando View Post
                          Is the 16% Native and 2% West African from myOrigins or from Gedmatch? If from myOrigins it should be higher at Gedmatch. Also add up the East Asian and Siberian for the total actual Native American.

                          You are very lucky.
                          The percentages are from the ancestry.com test. I have also uploaded his data to gedmatch and ran a few admixture programs.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            When running his autosomal data on gedmatch with the MDLP K13 Ultimate program I get this

                            ENF 37.19
                            ANE 22.05
                            WHG-UHG 20.31
                            Amerindian 10.42
                            Caucas-Gedrosia 2.49
                            Arctic 1.87
                            Subsaharian 1.81
                            Siberian 1.64
                            NearEast 1.25
                            ASI 0.98

                            And on his mixed mode his number one reference is

                            72.5% English_GBR + 27.5% AthabaskHD

                            I know about the Athabakan tribes, the odd thing is it also shows different designations for Apache and Navajo. And those are Athabaskan tribes correct? So what is the AthabaskHD??

                            And I know that these references are not very reliable, just curious.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
                              The percentages are from the ancestry.com test. I have also uploaded his data to gedmatch and ran a few admixture programs.
                              Did you do a transfer to FTDNA to see what myOrigins shows?

                              Originally posted by okie1086 View Post
                              When running his autosomal data on gedmatch with the MDLP K13 Ultimate program I get this

                              ENF 37.19
                              ANE 22.05
                              WHG-UHG 20.31
                              Amerindian 10.42
                              Caucas-Gedrosia 2.49
                              Arctic 1.87
                              Subsaharian 1.81
                              Siberian 1.64
                              NearEast 1.25
                              ASI 0.98

                              And on his mixed mode his number one reference is

                              72.5% English_GBR + 27.5% AthabaskHD

                              I know about the Athabakan tribes, the odd thing is it also shows different designations for Apache and Navajo. And those are Athabaskan tribes correct? So what is the AthabaskHD??

                              And I know that these references are not very reliable, just curious.
                              I don't know what AthabaskHD is. By the way, does your grandfather's cousin have English ancestry? If so how much? The lack of Spanish results is part of the reason I don't like Gedmatch Oracle results very much.

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