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K1a1b1a Haplogroup...I have a question.

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  • Tim Campbell
    replied
    jilski , I realize it's been seven years since your inquiry. I am curious. Has time or additional testing or matches helped you find an answer to your inquiry?

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  • jilski
    replied
    I am "K1a1b1a" and have no known jewish ancestry (am Catholic) and have very few decl

    i have posted on this before but have attatched my mitochondrial results from 23 and me. is this a definite ashkenazi line? if anybody could give me some insite i'd appreciate it!


    my maternal haplogroup is K1a1b1a and i have no known jewish ancestry. my maternal great great grandmother (as far as i can go back) was from Galicia, was Ukrainian and Ukrainian Greek Catholic. i have 340 matches on relative finder and only a few are declared ashkenazi so i know i could not have any recent jewish ancestry. i also had my mom tested for family finder at 'family tree dna' and she only has about 30 matches there and they are all distant. IS IT RARE TO BE K1A1B1A and not have any known jewish ancestry???? how could i have gotten this haplogroup and not be jewish or do i have to have a distant maternal jewish grandmother????
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  • jilski
    replied
    i started this thread a while ago so i thought i'd bump it up... so are any of you K1a1b1a and have no known jewish ancestry on that line??

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  • josh w.
    replied
    [QUOTE=Dave123;346614]In my case I never even thought of the possibility of Jewish (or Spanish) ancestry being Episcopalian, and having a pedigree 3/4 from the British Isles, and 1/4 from Germany. But as a young adult I was often mistaken for being Hispanic, and a handful of times for being Jewish. This made me curious about our family's ancestry. Thus when I heard about DNA testing, I took the plunge. I first started with Y-DNA, discovering I was in haplogroup E, but the common European variety - V13 subclade. Nonetheless, my closest match suspects we may descend from a Catalonian Sephardic, based on his research.

    Autosomal BGA analyses at Gedmatch, using 23andme data, show my DNA to be typical of northwest Europe where all my ancestry comes from (Gedmatch # M121954). But, interestingly, DNA Tribes latest autosomal analysis (using "more than 29,000 SNPs"), indicates 1/4 "Iberian". With few people to compare to I'm not sure if this is similar to other northwest Europeans, or above average, or even if their analysis is accurate. If it's somewhat above average, and reliable, it could be a pointer towards some distant Spanish and/or Sephardic ancestry.

    Dave, a few thoughts. I'm not sure that Eurocalc is precise enough to distinguish Jewish autosomal patterns from other southwestern European patterns. Other autosomal studies indicate a clear Italian componenent for European Jews.
    Most Sephardic Jews lived in southern Spain rather than Catalonia. Some of this group fled Spain via Catalonia to Italy. During Roman times there were Jewish colonies near Catolonia. Of course, some Sephardic Jews migrated to England via the Netherlands.
    Josh
    Last edited by josh w.; 1 September 2012, 10:47 AM.

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  • Dave123
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I almost find it amusing that in the 21st Century some people are pleased to discover that they might have Jewish origins. This was certainly not the case in the past. It is one of the values of dna testing that some individuals have discovered Jewish roots, but maybe I am too optimistic. The story of Sen. George Allen of Virginia (a story not unlike you own) is a poignant example of the complexities..
    In my case I never even thought of the possibility of Jewish (or Spanish) ancestry being Episcopalian, and having a pedigree 3/4 from the British Isles, and 1/4 from Germany. But as a young adult I was often mistaken for being Hispanic, and a handful of times for being Jewish. This made me curious about our family's ancestry. Thus when I heard about DNA testing, I took the plunge. I first started with Y-DNA, discovering I was in haplogroup E, but the common European variety - V13 subclade. Nonetheless, my closest match suspects we may descend from a Catalonian Sephardic, based on his research.

    Autosomal BGA analyses at Gedmatch, using 23andme data, show my DNA to be typical of northwest Europe where all my ancestry comes from (Gedmatch # M121954). But, interestingly, DNA Tribes latest autosomal analysis (using "more than 29,000 SNPs"), indicates 1/4 "Iberian". With few people to compare to I'm not sure if this is similar to other northwest Europeans, or above average, or even if their analysis is accurate. If it's somewhat above average, and reliable, it could be a pointer towards some distant Spanish and/or Sephardic ancestry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Favouriteslave
    replied
    Originally posted by josh w. View Post
    I almost find it amusing that in the 21st Century some people are proud or happy to discover that they might have Jewish origins. This was certainly not the case in the past. It is one of the values of dna testing that some individuals have discovered Jewish roots, but maybe I am too optimistic.
    Yes this is true! For some of us there was a huge gaping hole. Like something was missing and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It was my entire reason for doing the DNA testing for my father and I. It opened everything up wide and led me to discover other family members that also knew of this. I actually found a cousin who is a Rabbi. I felt like I was having an identity crisis. Not knowing who you are and where you come from is hard for someone like me. Sometimes it makes me angry and sometimes I feel like I got cheated. By having the peace of mind that the DNA provided I've come out of my funk and am putting the pieces together. I'm not going to convert to Judaism anytime soon but now I want to learn about the culture that should have been mine and wasn't. Most of all I want to honor my ancestors and their sacrifices.

    Leave a comment:


  • Favouriteslave
    replied
    Originally posted by jilski View Post
    both of my parents (autosmal dna at FTDNA) and therefore myself (at 23 and me) are 100% european (no middle eastern, etc)! what does this say about my maternal k1a1b1a?

    Only some Jews will have middle eastern dna in their recent history. These would be Sephardic in Spain and SE Europe like Bulgaria or Romania, Turkey etc... Another would be Mizrahi Jews who generally come from Iran/Iraq area. There are also Cochin Jews who have middle eastern DNA but reside in N. India. Most Ashkenazim Jews carry only European or E. European DNA. Usually the PF will have a breakdown of ethnicities within the first main catagory of (EUROPEAN) Besides 100% European you need to look at FTDNA groups for Galicia/Poland and see if you can figure anything out from those who also show K mtdna. There are lots of groups like Gesher Galicia that have an overwhelming majority of Jewish people in it.

    Do you have a really good family tree with first and last names? First names can be clues! For example in my tree (Spanish) I have names like Benjamin, Baltazar etc...

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  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by Favouriteslave View Post
    My family was aware and purposefully hid it. Still hundreds of years later there are stigmas with Judaism. When you have it ground in your face for hundreds of years and called names like Cochino, Chueta or Marrano then I can see why no one wanted to talk about it. I talk about it with my Costa Rican family and NOT one says a word about. Some are still in denial.

    Have you checked your autosomal dna? This could be helpful as it was for me. It found my Middle Eastern dna at 15%.
    I ran my dads Y dna and his exact matches turned up a mix of Separdic and Ashkenazi in the comment area. Check the comment areas of your Ancestral and Haplogroup origins for you mt Dna and see if there are any clues.
    I almost find it amusing that in the 21st Century some people are pleased to discover that they might have Jewish origins. This was certainly not the case in the past. It is one of the values of dna testing that some individuals have discovered Jewish roots, but maybe I am too optimistic. The story of Sen. George Allen of Virginia (a story not unlike you own) is a poignant example of the complexities..
    Last edited by josh w.; 26 June 2012, 06:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by J Honeychuck View Post
    You could say it validates it. A new paper on mtDNA U8 and K says all the subclades of K except for K1a3 and K1a4 probably originated in Europe. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/

    Regards,
    Jim
    Probably a definitive study. It still raises the question of where K1a1b1a entered the Jewish (Ashkenazi) population. Behar was suggesting that the origin of the Jewish line was in the Near East,. This recent study appears to challenge Behar.

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  • J Honeychuck
    replied
    Originally posted by jilski View Post
    both of my parents (autosmal dna at FTDNA) and therefore myself (at 23 and me) are 100% european (no middle eastern, etc)! what does this say about my maternal k1a1b1a?
    You could say it validates it. A new paper on mtDNA U8 and K says all the subclades of K except for K1a3 and K1a4 probably originated in Europe. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/

    Regards,
    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • jilski
    replied
    both of my parents (autosmal dna at FTDNA) and therefore myself (at 23 and me) are 100% european (no middle eastern, etc)! what does this say about my maternal k1a1b1a?

    Leave a comment:


  • Favouriteslave
    replied
    My family was aware and purposefully hid it. Still hundreds of years later there are stigmas with Judaism. When you have it ground in your face for hundreds of years and called names like Cochino, Chueta or Marrano then I can see why no one wanted to talk about it. I talk about it with my Costa Rican family and NOT one says a word about. Some are still in denial.

    Have you checked your autosomal dna? This could be helpful as it was for me. It found my Middle Eastern dna at 15%.
    I ran my dads Y dna and his exact matches turned up a mix of Separdic and Ashkenazi in the comment area. Check the comment areas of your Ancestral and Haplogroup origins for you mt Dna and see if there are any clues.
    Last edited by Favouriteslave; 26 June 2012, 01:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    Originally posted by jilski View Post
    is 291 matches on relative finder at 23 and me a lot lower number then average? i'm thinking if my parents do not have many matches at FTDNA then my number of matches at 23 and me has to be on the lower end...?

    A low number of FF matches at FTDNA might also suggest that the Jewish connection goes back more than five generations or you would have had more Jewish matches.

    Leave a comment:


  • jilski
    replied
    is 291 matches on relative finder at 23 and me a lot lower number then average? i'm thinking if my parents do not have many matches at FTDNA then my number of matches at 23 and me has to be on the lower end...?

    Leave a comment:


  • josh w.
    replied
    ,
    Originally posted by J Honeychuck View Post
    Actually I think it is quite rare. Some years ago, before Family Finder, it was Josh (if I remember correctly) who coined the rule of thumb, if you have no knowledge of Jewish ancestry in your family, you probably don't have any. Your case seems to be an exception to that rule.

    My paternal ancestry is from that region too, and my understanding is that although the Jewish and Catholic communities lived near each other, as a rule they did not "marry out" or "adopt out."

    Regards,
    Jim
    I think I said that if you did not have any Jewish dna matches then it is unlikely that you are of Jewish ancestry. I don't think that family knowledge on this particular issue is a reliable guide---given the tendency to hide identity upon conversion. Of my four closest Y matches, three are Christian and only one of the three is aware of Jewish ancestry---even in the one exception, not all family members are aware of the Jewish background. (We all clearly belong to a Jewish cluster at the FTDNA J Project).
    Last edited by josh w.; 26 June 2012, 11:51 AM.

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