K1a1b1a Haplogroup...I have a question.

[jilski]

i just had myself tested at 23 and me and it states my maternal haplogroup as K1a1b1a. it says this haplogroup is most common in ashkenazi jews. my maternal great great grandmother was from galicia ukraine and was greek catholic. i have no known jewish ancestry. my mother took the 'family finder' on FTDNA and she only has about 20 matches so i assume she has no recent jewish ancestry on either side of her ukrainian family. being that my maternal line is Kia1b1a and my great great grandmother being from galicia/Ukraine does this most likely mean that i have a "jewish maternal grandmother" somewhere down my maternal line (going further back then FF for my mother) that married a non jew or there was perhaps a non paternal event??

[jilski]

i did not mean 'non paternal event' but maybe adoption, etc...

[J Honeychuck]

The evidence suggests that your assumption of Ashkenazi maternal ancestry, but not recent, is correct.

http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_by_group/k1a1_genbank_sequences.htm

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K/default.aspx?section=mtresults

Regards,
Jim

[jilski]

thanks for your response. how many generations back could this likely 'jewish maternal grandmother' have been? how likely was it for a jewish woman to marry a non jewish man?

[Favouriteslave]

Seeing as how the maternal haplogroup came from your most distant female direct ancestor it absolutely could have been Jewish. People convert all the time and many Jews converted out of pressure of banishment or death.

Coming from a place like Galicia I would not doubt this is the case. Think of all the Spanish people who fled from Spain during the inquisitions and found themselves in Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Central and South America. They were forced to convert and now many of them are finding out they had Sephardic Jewish ancestors, Like me! Many of them are rediscovering their roots.

I say this is a good thing. It's good to know your roots and understand how it could have been to be in their shoes during those time. Humanity must adapt to stay alive and religion is no different in this case. Just hold in your heart that your "people" possibly gave up something very special in order to live, for without that you may not be here. I think about this everyday. In this way I honor my ancestors for their sacrifices.


What I did with my father matches is sent each of them a message asking if they had any Jewish ancestry. Low and behold over 90% of them did! Thing are not always what they appear on the outside. My father only had 11 matches including me! Mostly because he is from Costa Rica where his family has been isolated for quite a while, marrying into indigenous peoples and other immigrants from all different places. There aren't enough people in Costa Rica that have even tested.

[J Honeychuck]

thanks for your response. how many generations back could this likely 'jewish maternal grandmother' have been? how likely was it for a jewish woman to marry a non jewish man?

If I am reading the Family Finder FAQ correctly, shared DNA with any Jewish ancestors might be undetectable six generations back. http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=17#626

As for how a Jewish woman might become Greek Catholic in Galicia, my knowledge of Judaism is too shallow to know.

Regards,
Jim

[josh w.]

thanks for your response. how many generations back could this likely 'jewish maternal grandmother' have been? how likely was it for a jewish woman to marry a non jewish man?

Ashkenazi Jews migrated to Galicia and the Ukraine after 1400 for the most part. There were Mizrachi Jews who migrated earlier but the K1a pattern is less common in that group. Jewish men were more likely to inter-marry than Jewish women but it was not unheard of. There were also continuous pressures to convert due to anti-Semitism----this largely an untold story except for Iberia.

[jilski]

wow, thanks for the responses! they give me a lot to think about... it is probably not uncommon for those whose ancestors came from that region to have some direct jewish relatives on some of their lines. another funny thing, my dad (polish catholic) has about 40 matches on FF and my mom (ukrainian catholic) has about 20. i sent in my dna to 23 and me and i have 291 matches in their relative finder (the majority distant relatives of course)!

[J Honeychuck]

wow, thanks for the responses! they give me a lot to think about... it is probably not uncommon for those whose ancestors came from that region to have some direct jewish relatives on some of their lines. another funny thing, my dad (polish catholic) has about 40 matches on FF and my mom (ukrainian catholic) has about 20. i sent in my dna to 23 and me and i have 291 matches in their relative finder (the majority distant relatives of course)!

Actually I think it is quite rare. Some years ago, before Family Finder, it was Josh (if I remember correctly) who coined the rule of thumb, if you have no knowledge of Jewish ancestry in your family, you probably don't have any. Your case seems to be an exception to that rule.

My paternal ancestry is from that region too, and my understanding is that although the Jewish and Catholic communities lived near each other, as a rule they did not "marry out" or "adopt out."

Regards,
Jim

[josh w.]

,

Actually I think it is quite rare. Some years ago, before Family Finder, it was Josh (if I remember correctly) who coined the rule of thumb, if you have no knowledge of Jewish ancestry in your family, you probably don't have any. Your case seems to be an exception to that rule.

My paternal ancestry is from that region too, and my understanding is that although the Jewish and Catholic communities lived near each other, as a rule they did not "marry out" or "adopt out."

Regards,
Jim

I think I said that if you did not have any Jewish dna matches then it is unlikely that you are of Jewish ancestry. I don't think that family knowledge on this particular issue is a reliable guide---given the tendency to hide identity upon conversion. Of my four closest Y matches, three are Christian and only one of the three is aware of Jewish ancestry---even in the one exception, not all family members are aware of the Jewish background. (We all clearly belong to a Jewish cluster at the FTDNA J Project).

[jilski]

is 291 matches on relative finder at 23 and me a lot lower number then average? i'm thinking if my parents do not have many matches at FTDNA then my number of matches at 23 and me has to be on the lower end...?

[josh w.]

is 291 matches on relative finder at 23 and me a lot lower number then average? i'm thinking if my parents do not have many matches at FTDNA then my number of matches at 23 and me has to be on the lower end...?

A low number of FF matches at FTDNA might also suggest that the Jewish connection goes back more than five generations or you would have had more Jewish matches.

[Favouriteslave]

My family was aware and purposefully hid it. Still hundreds of years later there are stigmas with Judaism. When you have it ground in your face for hundreds of years and called names like Cochino, Chueta or Marrano then I can see why no one wanted to talk about it. I talk about it with my Costa Rican family and NOT one says a word about. Some are still in denial.

Have you checked your autosomal dna? This could be helpful as it was for me. It found my Middle Eastern dna at 15%.
I ran my dads Y dna and his exact matches turned up a mix of Separdic and Ashkenazi in the comment area. Check the comment areas of your Ancestral and Haplogroup origins for you mt Dna and see if there are any clues.

[jilski]

both of my parents (autosmal dna at FTDNA) and therefore myself (at 23 and me) are 100% european (no middle eastern, etc)! what does this say about my maternal k1a1b1a?

[J Honeychuck]

both of my parents (autosmal dna at FTDNA) and therefore myself (at 23 and me) are 100% european (no middle eastern, etc)! what does this say about my maternal k1a1b1a?

You could say it validates it. A new paper on mtDNA U8 and K says all the subclades of K except for K1a3 and K1a4 probably originated in Europe. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/

Regards,
Jim